Cleveland: Downtown & Vicinity Residences Discussion

[X]

I think you're talking about 1850 Superior Ave.  It's permanent supportive housing for chronically homeless individuals.  Many of those people have mental health issues and/or substance abuse issues.

[ClevelandOhio]

Just added Milton Manor and 1281 W 9th St.

 

Does anyone know what is above Zocalo and Dredgers Union on East 4th? I have always assumed apartments or condos but cannot find any information on them.

[hubz1124]

^Fredrick Building Apartments  I believe

 

http://www.east4thstreet.com/

 

[Zimzolla]

Milton Manor has 80 units

 

http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/15885160/2344-Prospect-Ave-Cleveland-OH/

 

 

[hubz1124]

no vacancy: with more residents moving downtown, occupancy rates reach 95 percent

 

Allison Taller, an attorney who works downtown, loves living on E. 4th Street. Not only is her daily commute a short walk, but she also can enjoy happy hour with friends without worrying about driving home. In the morning, she often jogs across the Detroit-Superior Bridge, taking in breathtaking views of the city before starting her day.

 

Saira Rahman, an associate with B & F Capital Markets who lives on the East Bank of the Flats, says living downtown is anything but inconvenient. In fact, Rahman and her husband rarely leave the area, she says. Restaurants, nightlife and a small grocery store -- just about everything the couple might need -- lie within close walking distance.

 

http://www.freshwatercleveland.com/features/downtownliving082511.aspx

 

[ClevelandOhio]

Milton Manor has 80 units

 

http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/15885160/2344-Prospect-Ave-Cleveland-OH/

 

 

 

Thank you, just added it.

 

no vacancy: with more residents moving downtown, occupancy rates reach 95 percent

 

Allison Taller, an attorney who works downtown, loves living on E. 4th Street. Not only is her daily commute a short walk, but she also can enjoy happy hour with friends without worrying about driving home. In the morning, she often jogs across the Detroit-Superior Bridge, taking in breathtaking views of the city before starting her day.

 

Saira Rahman, an associate with B & F Capital Markets who lives on the East Bank of the Flats, says living downtown is anything but inconvenient. In fact, Rahman and her husband rarely leave the area, she says. Restaurants, nightlife and a small grocery store -- just about everything the couple might need -- lie within close walking distance.

 

http://www.freshwatercleveland.com/features/downtownliving082511.aspx

 

 

Nice article. Just dont want developers incorporating green space into all of their projects

[KJP]

 

Nice article. Just dont want developers incorporating green space into all of their projects

 

Me neither. I'd rather see one of the parking lots in the Warehouse District replaced with a street-level park over a level or two of underground parking.

[KJP]

Moved this discussion from the Jacobs Public Square property topic.....

 

KJP - If the Huntington Building were repurposed as residential -- that's 1.3M square feet -- minus what one would hope could be set up as retail at the bottom level -- how many units would you estimate that would create.  Also, I've read here before that the building simply does not have good enough natural lighting to create appealing units due to the distance central rooms have from the exterior walls.  Thoughts/examples for ways to get around that? 

 

It would seem that a good average size for a residential unit would be about 1,000 square feet. Some would be larger. Some smaller. So 1.3 million / 1,000 square feet = 1,300 residential units. Yep, that's a lot! So I'm wondering if lower floors could be shops, restaurants and cafes centered around those incredible high-ceiling atriums to make them into a huge a winter garden indoor plaza. Some of the interior, upper apartments could look out into those garden plazas. And since they would be on floors up above the shops, they would be a little farther away from the noise of the atriums.

[Grumpy]

^Aren't their already shops on the lower floor?

[Burnham_2011]

1300 units would certainly be a stretch, but you're right that with multi-use designations (retail, a gym, internal administrative offices, and of course hallways, larger units, and misc. storage etc we could probably see around 950 units or about 4 "Residences at 668 Euclid" sized apartment buildings.  That's still a LOT of housing, but if the prices were similar to 668 it's possible the market would soak it up.

 

This kind of project, assuming it did not pull renters from other CBD area apartments would be transformative for downtown in that it would add significant foot traffic and commercial potential to the Ninth and Euclid intersection.

[RyanScav]

I have been up to the 21st level of that building and I can tell you that there is actually a large area that is open to below (a light well). You can see it from a google or bing maps. It might take a bit of imagination, but I think it could be a possibility. Especially since the ceiling is so high on each level as it is.

 

Some examples are - new light wells through the building, building egress onto the interior atrium, etc. Where you put the circulation is the biggest factor, but I think it can be done.

[Htsguy]

I had an office in the Huntington Building at one time, and have been in numerous other offices throughout the building over the years.  The current light wells really don't let in that much light to interior spaces and I believe there would have to be significant reconfiguration of the interior to make apartments marketable (at a significant cost I would imagine...could those costs be re-couped?).  In fact I always thought that even many of the outside offices seemed dark and gloomy, probably due to surrounding buildings.

[KJP]

^Aren't their already shops on the lower floor?

 

Yes, but I'm thinking something like these.....

 

 

 

 

 

[sizzlinbeef]

?

 

As far as light penetration, would apartments configured in the Huntington really be any different light-wise than the Statler Arms?  Would a lack of large windows really be a turn-off if the price was right?

 

They could most likely do what they did at 668, and make the apartments essentially 'pathways' to the windows.

 

[CLEJoe]

For what it's worth, I love the layout of 668 and am proud to be a resident of downtown Cleveland.

 

That said, the bedroom (at least mine) doesn't have a window leading to outside. It leads to the hallway. So my room is constantly dark, regardless of time of day, making it more difficult than ever to get up in the morning, not to mention I never feel like doing work in there, since I can't look outside.

[bjk]

Years ago (when it was still the Union Commerce Building) I worked in an office with a window in one of the interior light wells, just about one floor above the atrium roof. In the winter time, it was a perpetually gloomy view, with barely a hint of light reaching down to us. If those were your only windows, it would not be a desirable apartment.

 

Of course, it would have been a lot better up about ten or fifteen floors, where there wouldn't have been such as steep angle to the sun or sky.

[327]

From the end of an article ranking wealth disparities in various cities...

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45052935/ns/us_news-life/#.TqikvXJHsvs

 

"Downtown Cleveland had the greatest gap between rich and poor. The neighborhood is dominated by individuals living alone, mostly women and mostly black, who tend to have incomes of under $10,000 per year and receive food stamps."

 

Is it me, or does that description not sound right at all?  I get the rich/poor aspect, and I assume several concentrations of projects are being considered part of downtown.  But no mention of the high-end stuff that justified including it in the article...

[bumsquare]

That article is incoherent.  How does one area have an income gap? Unless they mean between the rich and the poor just in downtown, in which case the quantity of poor people and rich people would have nothing to do with it.

[327]

Easy... by having a high variance among the incomes of its residents.  I found it annoying that their description of downtown only includes the low income portion, which is silly considering what their point is.  And their point is that there's a statistically odd mixture here of concentrated projects and million-dollar condos.  Those aren't typically so close to each other.  Atlanta exhibits the same phenomenon on a larger scale.   

[X]

I believe Downtown population numbers often include a good helping of the homeless and Justice Center "residents", as well.

[ClevelandOhio]

Yeah you can subtract 2,024 from Clevelands number.

[ClevelandOhio]

I think the true downtown population is more around 6,000 to 7,000.

[WestBLVD]

Just out of curiosity, what historic year does the current downtown Cleveland population now resemble? For example are we at a similar downtown population as say 1930 or 1950 or some later year?

 

Historically the core downtown has never had much residential right? Are there many buildings downtown pre WWII that were built exclusively as apartments?

 

On the flip side, any numbers or guesses on how many residents lived in the core of downtown (bounded by Cuyahoga River, North of present 90 and West of E 17th) in 1920, 1930, 1940, etc? I know there was residential farther down Prospect and in the East 20s, but I don't consider that core downtown.

 

I'm just trying to gauge how today's downtown population compares against a historical context for downtown Cleveland.

[Confiteordeo]

http://csudigitalhumanities.org/exhibits/items/show/3083

[MyTwoSense]

http://csudigitalhumanities.org/exhibits/items/show/3083

What is the statical area used?    That is one thing none of us can ever agree on, the boundaries of downtown Cleveland.

[Rustbelter]

Just out of curiosity, what historic year does the current downtown Cleveland population now resemble? For example are we at a similar downtown population as say 1930 or 1950 or some later year?

 

Historically the core downtown has never had much residential right? Are there many buildings downtown pre WWII that were built exclusively as apartments?

 

On the flip side, any numbers or guesses on how many residents lived in the core of downtown (bounded by Cuyahoga River, North of present 90 and West of E 17th) in 1920, 1930, 1940, etc? I know there was residential farther down Prospect and in the East 20s, but I don't consider that core downtown.

 

I'm just trying to gauge how today's downtown population compares against a historical context for downtown Cleveland.

I don't believe that Cleveland had much of a residential population at all downtown once it reached big city status. I'm sure at one time there was residential right off of Public Square when Cleveland was more of a town, but that made way for the central business district as the city grew.

 

I do know that the area between E. 12th Street and E. 30th Street was once a densely population area made up of apartment blocks and houses. Although, I'm not sure if that area was considered part of downtown at the time or some other neighborhood. I believe very few streets around there survived as residential by 1960. Here are some photos from that area of some of the last survivors that were destroyed to make room for Cleveland State and parking lots (from the CSU archives).

 

 

 

 

I don't really know the history of that area other than Millionaires Row along Euclid. I just know that must have been a pretty active residential district at one time that was leveled to make room for parking lots and one story commercial/industrial structures  :x

 

[ClevelandOhio]

^

Damn

[StapHanger]

Wow, good finds with those photos, Rustbelter.  I've seen aerial shots of the early CSU campus showing some of those streets, but never street-level views.

 

I agree with your answer too.  Under today's commonly understood downtown boundaries (roughly, inside the innerbelt), the population was probably much larger as late as the 1960s before sharply declining in the 1960s and 1970s due to demo.

 

In the business district though, seems like there was very little high density residential ever built.  Some 19th century rowhouses and small apartments, but most were replaced with commercial buildings as the CBD grew.  One exception that lasted well into the 20th century (I think it was lost to fire in the 1960) was the Ellington Block on East 9th:

 

(from CSU Cleveland Memory Project)

[McCleveland]

actually there are more people living downtown today than at any point in Cleveland's history. All data I have seen now has dt pushing 12,000 residents. And to be honest, because I know people have thrown it out there before... I have no idea whether or not the 2,000+ people in the county jail count towards that.

[ClevelandOhio]

^ Looking at the census data, im getting only about 6,000 to 7,000. Add the 2,000 people in the county jail and the 2,000 on the west bank of the flats and there is your 10,000/11,000ish number. But even the original 7,000 is deceiving. The 7000 comes from everything east of the river, south of the lake, and north and west of the highway. These boundaries include several homeless shelters that add another 400-500 plus more people to the numbers. Also would you classify someone living on the corner of St. Clair and East 26th as living downtown? Doesnt seem like downtown living to me. Thats another reason I dont like those borders.

[StapHanger]

Oops, I should have refreshed. ClevelandOhio beat me to it.

 

As far as I can tell, the 12k number comes from the 2010 census; if you sum the population count of the four census tracts that cover Downtown, which is everything inside the Innerbelt as well as the East WEST Bank of the Flats, you get 11,693.  Unfortunately that number does include the Justice Center population and also includes Lakeside terrace, which comes with the West Bank.  It might also include a homeless shelter or two.  If you exclude the Justice Center and Lakeside Terrace, the population is more like 8,300 (estimated using census block groups rather than tracks).  It's possible someone did a more nuanced unit count of residential buildings and estimated residents per unit to get to the 12k, but I'd have to see their methodology before I trusted it above the decennial census.

 

actually there are more people living downtown today than at any point in Cleveland's history.

 

I've heard that factoid too- do you know where it comes from?  I think there's a high probability that it's bogus.  I just did a quick tally of the 1950 census tracts that pretty closely cover downtown within the Innerbelt, but excluding the West Bank, and I'm coming up with close to 16k.  I'm guessing that if I went further back the population would be even higher.  Interestingly the population really tanked during the 1950s (maybe Erieview and highway-related clearance?) and the population really plummeted by 1960.

[Htsguy]

^Why would you exclude Lakeside Terrace.  Is it because you don't consider it downtown?

[StapHanger]

^Why would you exclude Lakeside Terrace.  Is it because you don't consider it downtown?

 

I guess I don't really consider it downtown, but admit it's pretty subjective, so fine by me if it's in there.  The 12k number is totally legit, it's just a matter of knowing exactly what it includes.  If people want a population for market rate, non-incarcerated downtown residents, I'd guess it's more like 6,500-7000.  This isn't to be a downer; it's still much higher than it was in 2000 and still growing.  And lots of demand for more growth even in these down times, so should keep going up.

[KJP]

Those pictures are terrific. Very sad to see that. I think CSU might have been better off being built where Gateway is today. Speaking of which.....

 

The area on the immediate south side of downtown, which was called Big Italy and today is the site of Gateway, the Inner Belt's central interchange and the Post office complex plus Tri-C, was a dense residential area until the 1930s.

 

Look to the left side of this photo....

 

 

 

[Etheostoma Caeruleum]

Great photos, though the transformation to date is sickening!

[3 Dog Pat]

KJP, the first picture is collision bend, right?  What road is that coming out of Scranton Peninsula?

[MyTwoSense]

KJP, the first picture is collision bend, right?  What road is that coming out of Scranton Peninsula?

 

thats Ontario.  Imagine yourself in the TT looking south to the Gateway complex. 

[3 Dog Pat]

Im talking about the road that has the bridge over the river

[skorasaurus]

Im talking about the road that has the bridge over the river

 

I'm guessing that it's the currently inoperable bridge [next to the fire station on corner of carter and scranton] that would connect stones levee and scranton/carter.

 

West 3rd, according to KJP.

[urbanlife]

Im talking about the road that has the bridge over the river

 

I'm guessing that it's the currently inoperable bridge [next to the fire station on corner of carter and scranton] that would connect stones levee and scranton/carter.

 

not to go off topic, but the picture shows a draw bridge which you still see in other cities crossing rivers but we seem to have eliminated all of these in favor of the lift bridges and 1 swing bridge.  any reason for this?  it seems the draw bridges could be cheaper to operate and might offer the opportunity to make more connections over the river.

[Clevelander17]

What would Euclid Avenue look like today if even 90% of the Millionaire's Row mansions were still there?  How would they fit into Cleveland today?  I've never been to Buffalo, but I've heard that they kept most of their big mansions and have re-purposed them in thoughtful ways that preserve history will allowing for modern uses.

[tradition7]

Can anyone tell me why I cannot see the posted photos?

[MyTwoSense]

Can anyone tell me why I cannot see the posted photos?

Potential Answers:

 

[*]You're not an UrbanOhio paid supporter

[*]You're not one of the cool kids

[*]You have a cheap ass computer/mobile device

[*]You dont know what you're doing

[*]UrbanOhio is f-----g up?

8)

[tradition7]

Can anyone tell me why I cannot see the posted photos?

Potential Answers:

 

[*]You're not an UrbanOhio paid supporter

[*]You're not one of the cool kids

[*]You have a cheap ass computer/mobile device

[*]You dont know what you're doing

[*]UrbanOhio is f-----g up?

8)

 

Well 1-4 are definitely true but I believe it's because photobucket.com is blocked here at work.

 

[Burnham_2011]

What would Euclid Avenue look like today if even 90% of the Millionaire's Row mansions were still there?  How would they fit into Cleveland today?  I've never been to Buffalo, but I've heard that they kept most of their big mansions and have re-purposed them in thoughtful ways that preserve history will allowing for modern uses.

 

 

I mentioned this is another topic before, but I think Euclid Ave. and St. Charles Ave in New Orleans are very similar.  Both are main avenues that connect the downtown CBD to a large park (Audobon Park in N.O.  University Circle in Cleveland).  They also both had (now just St Charles) street cars.  If Millionaire's Row had been preserved (say from E30 to the Clinic around E79), the Euclid Street car left intact, and the neighborhoods north and south of Euclid (Hough, Central, Kinsman) survived as they were in the 40s --  I believe it would look a lot like this: http://g.co/maps/szet9

 

Though that is a lot of "what if's"

[MyTwoSense]

What would Euclid Avenue look like today if even 90% of the Millionaire's Row mansions were still there?  How would they fit into Cleveland today?  I've never been to Buffalo, but I've heard that they kept most of their big mansions and have re-purposed them in thoughtful ways that preserve history will allowing for modern uses.

 

 

I mentioned this is another topic before, but I think Euclid Ave. and St. Charles Ave in New Orleans are very similar.  Both are main avenues that connect the downtown CBD to a large park (Audobon Park in N.O.  University Circle in Cleveland).  They also both had (now just St Charles) street cars.  If Millionaire's Row had been preserved (say from E30 to the Clinic around E79), the Euclid Street car left intact, and the neighborhoods north and south of Euclid (Hough, Central, Kinsman) survived as they were in the 40s --  I believe it would look a lot like this: http://g.co/maps/szet9

 

Though that is a lot of "what if's"

 

Kinsman???????????  I think you mean Fairfax.

[KJP]

Im talking about the road that has the bridge over the river

 

That's West Third Street, which crossed the river three times on lift bridges, with the northernmost bridge (just out of the picture at right) ending at Canal Road below today's Tower City Center. It used to go up the hill to Superior and then continue north to the lake bluff.

[3 Dog Pat]

Thanks KJP  (very cool)

 

I am sorry for throwing the thread off track, lets get back to downtown residencies discussion

[TMH]

I grew up in Cleveland and I remember that in the 60s Reserve Square apartments were built and it was a big deal because there were finally apartments for people downtown.  Unlike NYC, Chicago, Philadelphia, etc.,  Cleveland did not have a major downtown population.  Cleveland is a city of neighborhoods.  People would work downtown and then go home to their neighborhood. 

 

When we moved back to Cleveland about 13 years ago from Chicago, there were very few options for downtown living. Today we live downtown (and love it!) and there are so many people and neighbors here, that I know it is a great improvement.

[MyTwoSense]

I grew up in Cleveland and I remember that in the 60s Reserve Square apartments were built and it was a big deal because there were finally apartments for people downtown.  Unlike NYC, Chicago, Philadelphia, etc.,  Cleveland did not have a major downtown population.  Cleveland is a city of neighborhoods.  People would work downtown and then go home to their neighborhood. 

 

When we moved back to Cleveland about 13 years ago from Chicago, there were very few options for downtown living. Today we live downtown (and love it!) and there are so many people and neighbors here, that I know it is a great improvement.

Philadelphia didn't have one either (yet they had close in neighborhoods to city center and rail) and Chicago just started gaining downtown momentum.  New Orleans, Boston and Manhattan, were the only "large" cities with sizeable residential populations in the CBD/Downtown.