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Cleveland: Flats Developments (Non-Stonebridge or FEB)

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Hopefully it can stay a functioning mill. I guess there are no ships that drop off grain then if it is coming in via rail. I thought there were ships that drop off grain in Buffalo at the Cheerios plant south of the harbor.  Interesting how that dominates the smell of downtown Buffalo in the mornings. 

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There's so many lightly used industrial properties down in the flats. I'd love to see much of that redeveloped into denser uses. What a great location that'd be for residential.

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Once or twice a week I walk the DS bridge. That mill has some kind of air compressor release valve on the outside and it makes an annoyingly almost-regular, but random ‘clink’ as the value cover drops back. Really bugs me and would drive me insane if I worked there! 


And they reckon that the last thing she saw in her life was
Sting, singing on the roof of the Barbican

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Another photo. This is post-1937, after the 5x9 concrete elevators were built. If they were converted into housing, it would be a 15-story building including the cupola on the roof.

IMG_20200429_080424.jpg

 

IMG_20200429_080449.jpg

Edited by KJP
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"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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KJP's pics really show how fowl the river was in ~1937, and I presume it only got worse in the 40s, 50s and 60s.  When I see rowers on it nowadays I can hardly believe it's the same body of water.

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12 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Note that sources I referenced in my article said that the dominoes fell in the opposite direction. The railroad is shutting down, which is causing the mill to shut down. Everything is for sale and their owners can make more money selling to real estate developers rather than to new railroad and mill users

 

1 hour ago, Dougal said:

 

I hate to see the whole industry shut down.  It would be nice to see the operation move to Opportunity Corridor, but the current owners are probably content to just let it go.

 

26 minutes ago, roman totale XVII said:

^ Yeah, they probably are. Tiny margins in that industry and being next to a railroad may well have been the only thing making it relatively sustainable. 

 

 

Redirecting from the Cleveland general business thread....

 

Owners of the railroad and the mill are content to let both go, if not downright eager. I wish I could say more right now. But the railroad made its last shipment a week or so ago. There's a video of it on youtube.

 

Suffice it to say, some of this amazing plan for the Columbus Road peninsula, mapped out nearly 200 years ago, has a chance of happening. That plan was dramatically redirected when Cleveland's first railroad (much of the right of way is used by the Flats Industrial RR) built a yard and a locomotive roundhouse on the Columbus Road peninsula. It stopped the residential/mercantile plan for the peninsula and took things in the direction of heavy industry. Now it's got a chance of moving more in the direction that its original visionaries had hoped two centuries ago. Imagine what a vibrant setting this could be. ....  EDIT: I've posted a larger version of the image below at: http://freepdfhosting.com/a339617938.pdf

 

 

Cleveland Centre-1835-s.jpg

Edited by KJP
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"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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@Cleburger Is it working now?


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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4 minutes ago, KJP said:

@Cleburger Is it working now?

Yep it's imbedded in post now.  Before it was just an attachment.   

Impressive denisty!  

 

Thanks! 

Edited by Cleburger

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59 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

Yep it's imbedded in post now.  Before it was just an attachment.   

Impressive denisty!  

 

Thanks! 

 

I think very little of that was ever built.

 

It'd be really cool to see that peninsula turn into something of a mix of residential/retail/park.  It's one of my favorite spots in the city.  I'd love to see RTA build an "L" style Redline station off their viaduct.

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The flats have so much potential, it is remarkable.  I have been recently exploring thanks to the towpath and other trails.  Its good to know people are starting to finally realize the untapped potential, I just hope they can save what is left of some of the beautiful original brick structures that remain and not demolish them all for new construction.  I am excited to learn more about what KJP knows here!

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I’m not sure “gravity place” is going to work so well. It’ll quickly be called collision corner. Perhaps someone can open an indoor trampoline center on the corner and call it gravity place showing off the old map. 

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It’s like we used to kind of take the Flats for granted- like it “was what it was“ - an industrial area that we could stick a bunch of bars in - and that was pretty trendy for a time.. But recently, you can’t help but get the sense that the fantastic potential of the area is being appreciated, rediscovered and reimagined.  The energy of that sensibility, instead of the lethargy or even acceptance of a negative self-image is way cooler and exciting. Now can we make the next big step - from reimagining to redesigning and building? Let’s hope...

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On 5/10/2020 at 3:13 PM, audidave said:

I’m not sure “gravity place” is going to work so well. It’ll quickly be called collision corner. Perhaps someone can open an indoor trampoline center on the corner and call it gravity place showing off the old map. 

 

Considering it was designed nearly 200 years ago, I think something more like this was envisioned for Gravity Place....

 

Copenhagen-CityHallplaza-Oklahoman.jpg

 

Bucharest plaza.jpeg

 

Oxford Circus-London.jpg

 

Brataslava-Slovakia.jpg

 

Vilnius-Lithuania.jpg

 

Edited by KJP
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"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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On 5/10/2020 at 1:09 PM, KJP said:

 

 

 

 

Redirecting from the Cleveland general business thread....

 

Owners of the railroad and the mill are content to let both go, if not downright eager. I wish I could say more right now. But the railroad made its last shipment a week or so ago. There's a video of it on youtube.

 

Suffice it to say, some of this amazing plan for the Columbus Road peninsula, mapped out nearly 200 years ago, has a chance of happening. That plan was dramatically redirected when Cleveland's first railroad (much of the right of way is used by the Flats Industrial RR) built a yard and a locomotive roundhouse on the Columbus Road peninsula. It stopped the residential/mercantile plan for the peninsula and took things in the direction of heavy industry. Now it's got a chance of moving more in the direction that its original visionaries had hoped two centuries ago. Imagine what a vibrant setting this could be. ....  EDIT: I've posted a larger version of the image below at: http://freepdfhosting.com/a339617938.pdf

 

 

Cleveland Centre-1835-s.jpg

 

1) Ken this is really cool! Thank you for sharing...

 

2) Not to be a turd, but is the town square called Obesity Place

Edited by YABO713
I'm an idiot
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On 5/10/2020 at 1:09 PM, KJP said:

Suffice it to say, some of this amazing plan for the Columbus Road peninsula, mapped out nearly 200 years ago, has a chance of happening.

 

I'm going to guess that a couple of those streets are named after the father of the endower of Case School of Applied Sciences (or maybe the son).

 

https://case.edu/ech/articles/c/case-leonard-sr

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2 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Considering it was designed nearly 200 years ago, I think something more like this was envisioned for Gravity Place....

 

Copenhagen-CityHallplaza-Oklahoman.jpg

 

Bucharest plaza.jpeg

 

Oxford Circus-London.jpg

 

Brataslava-Slovakia.jpg

 

Vilnius-Lithuania.jpg

 

Beautiful pedestrian scenes.  I love pedestrian villages but Columbus Rd is a thoroughfare. I would be astounded if that were to change. I could see a pedestrian neighborhood if it was focused around the grain mill ala quaker square of Akron

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20 minutes ago, audidave said:

Beautiful pedestrian scenes.  I love pedestrian villages but Columbus Rd is a thoroughfare. I would be astounded if that were to change. I could see a pedestrian neighborhood if it was focused around the grain mill ala quaker square of Akron

I've argued this point on Reddit when someone was complaining about their commute being held up by a freighter. The state of Ohio just spent 600B on a new innerbelt and are consistently and unnecessarily upgrading all of the highways surrounding the downtown core. There's no reason for this to be a throughfare, there's plenty of other places for single occupancy vehicles to hang out/drive and ODOT makes it very easy (too easy IMO) to get from A to B, the last thing somewhere so close to downtown needs is to acquiesce to vehicles.

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On 5/10/2020 at 1:09 PM, KJP said:

 

 

Cleveland Centre-1835-s.jpg

I love looking at old maps. Computer and CAD drawn just aren’t the same

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46 minutes ago, audidave said:

Beautiful pedestrian scenes.  I love pedestrian villages but Columbus Rd is a thoroughfare. I would be astounded if that were to change. I could see a pedestrian neighborhood if it was focused around the grain mill ala quaker square of Akron

 

I'm just saying what Columbus Peninsula was intended to be 200 years ago. It took a very different direction soon thereafter. Most of the peninsula could be developed similarly, albeit with Gravity Place set off to the side or with traffic calmed on Columbus Road. 

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"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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1 hour ago, audidave said:

Beautiful pedestrian scenes.  I love pedestrian villages but Columbus Rd is a thoroughfare. I would be astounded if that were to change. I could see a pedestrian neighborhood if it was focused around the grain mill ala quaker square of Akron

 

So what? Reconsider what this city could be. Sorry western suburb commuters, but Columbus can be something better.

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1 hour ago, w28th said:

 

So what? Reconsider what this city could be. Sorry western suburb commuters, but Columbus can be something better.

Cleveland can’t even close little Market Avenue to pedestrians without creating a huge uproar.  I personally thought that was a done deal.  I definitely can see what this city can be.  I just know what it is which is certainly better than its been in last 60+ years. 

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25 minutes ago, audidave said:

 

Cleveland can’t even close little Market Avenue to pedestrians without creating a huge uproar.  I personally thought that was a done deal.  I definitely can see what this city can be.  I just know what it is which is certainly better than its been in last 60+ years. 

 

I hate when people have a really good point I don't like. 🙂

 

EDIT: on the other hand....

 

 

 

Edited by KJP
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I think it's interesting that the Western Reserve Rowing Association's launches line up almost perfectly with the spot that the original plan called for a "Public Landing".  I'm sure they must have realized that at some point.

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14 hours ago, audidave said:

Beautiful pedestrian scenes.  I love pedestrian villages but Columbus Rd is a thoroughfare. I would be astounded if that were to change. I could see a pedestrian neighborhood if it was focused around the grain mill ala quaker square of Akron

 

 

there is no problem at all with a road next to a public piazza.

 

columbus road can hug the edge of gravity place plaza as it does and be fine -- with a few added bollards on the plaza side and traditional high street type development on the other.

 

if there is going to be a push for a switchover to residential here, i always hoped something of this charming old plan could be revived. i really like the radial street layout and america could use more traditional old world style plazas, they are magnets for development and streetlife.

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On 5/10/2020 at 1:09 PM, KJP said:

Owners of the railroad and the mill are content to let both go, if not downright eager. I wish I could say more right now. But the railroad made its last shipment a week or so ago. There's a video of it on youtube.

 

I was on the river yesterday.   There are still rail cars at the mill, and a worker was climbing down in one doing something.  

 

 

IMG_2571.jpeg

IMG_2572.jpeg

IMG_2573.jpeg

IMG_2574.jpeg

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On 5/10/2020 at 1:09 PM, KJP said:

 

 

 

 

Redirecting from the Cleveland general business thread....

 

Owners of the railroad and the mill are content to let both go, if not downright eager. I wish I could say more right now. But the railroad made its last shipment a week or so ago. There's a video of it on youtube.

 

Suffice it to say, some of this amazing plan for the Columbus Road peninsula, mapped out nearly 200 years ago, has a chance of happening. That plan was dramatically redirected when Cleveland's first railroad (much of the right of way is used by the Flats Industrial RR) built a yard and a locomotive roundhouse on the Columbus Road peninsula. It stopped the residential/mercantile plan for the peninsula and took things in the direction of heavy industry. Now it's got a chance of moving more in the direction that its original visionaries had hoped two centuries ago. Imagine what a vibrant setting this could be. ....  EDIT: I've posted a larger version of the image below at: http://freepdfhosting.com/a339617938.pdf

 

 

Cleveland Centre-1835-s.jpg

So I assume that the

Flats Industrial Railroad will sell their right of ways property on the Scranton Peninsula to either the Thunderbird Project Partership OR to NRP to allow them to build a larger apartment project and or a large mix use project?

 

Especially IF they can buy at least part of the rest of the Scranton Peninsula that is owned by the 100+ year old Trust.

Edited by Larry1962
Typos and more details

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10 hours ago, Larry1962 said:

So I assume that the

Flats Industrial Railroad will sell their right of ways property on the Scranton Peninsula to either the Thunderbird Project Partership OR to NRP to allow them to build a larger apartment project and or a large mix use project?

 

Especially IF they can buy at least part of the rest of the Scranton Peninsula that is owned by the 100+ year old Trust.

 

Both options better be damn sure they keep whatever existing structures are there. We can't afford to lose any more of the historic building stock in the flats.

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11 hours ago, Larry1962 said:

So I assume that the

Flats Industrial Railroad will sell their right of ways property on the Scranton Peninsula to either the Thunderbird Project Partership OR to NRP to allow them to build a larger apartment project and or a large mix use project?

 

Especially IF they can buy at least part of the rest of the Scranton Peninsula that is owned by the 100+ year old Trust.

 

I responded here.....

 

 

And here

 

 

Edited by KJP
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More about a Red Line station on the viaduct above Canal Basin Park, done in concert with the Metroparks' Red Line Greenway/Towpath Trail linkage....

 

 

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A nugget on the city owned land next to the, now-closed, grain mill on Merwin Ave. Looks like the Port has an option to renew the lease that Grain Craft was using for truck parking. It will be interesting to see where this goes. I have to imagine the city has other plans for this land moving forward.

 

http://clevelandohio.gov/sites/default/files/planning/drc/agenda/2020/CPC-Agenda-WebEx-meeting-060520.pdf

 

Quote

11. Ordinance No. 369-2020(Ward 3/Councilmember McCormack): Authorizing the Director of Port Control to exercise the first option to renew Contract No. CT 3001 NF 2017-061 with Grain Craft, Inc. fka Cereal Food Processors, Inc. to lease of certain city-owned property generally located at 1635 Merwin Avenue.

 

image.thumb.png.ef9d69ae10e0b0a5ffae02ae17ff77b1.png

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7 minutes ago, Mendo said:

A nugget on the city owned land next to the, now-closed, grain mill on Merwin Ave. Looks like the Port has an option to renew the lease that Grain Craft was using for truck parking. It will be interesting to see where this goes. I have to imagine the city has other plans for this land moving forward.

 

http://clevelandohio.gov/sites/default/files/planning/drc/agenda/2020/CPC-Agenda-WebEx-meeting-060520.pdf

 

 

image.thumb.png.ef9d69ae10e0b0a5ffae02ae17ff77b1.png

 

Stay tuned.... 

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I AM SO HAPPY to read they plan to restore the Malcom Building.  SUCH a cool structure you can easily see from the Towpath that I always wish could become something.  What a surprise this is!  

 

 

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That's exciting.  This is one of those development ideas/areas that I didn't think was ever really going to take off, but with a big tenant, that makes it way more realistic.

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This is great and I hope it works out; that said, I’d rather see this on the Columbus or Scranton peninsulas. Neither one of those is anywhere near critical mass of redevelopment yet. Cleveland Whiskey could have helped those areas more quickly reach their potential and I think it is more important to get those areas going.  (I don’t even know what this peninsula is called. Collision Bend Peninsula? Stones Levee Peninsula?) There aren’t any low level bridges from this peninsula to OC or Duck Island, so it’s going to feel very disconnected.  The low level W3rd bridge to Tremont isn’t particularly direct to the residential area. In contrast, both Columbus and Scranton are already nicely connected to both sides of the river, and @KJP’s awesome Viaduct infill Red Line station proposal could really make the Columbus peninsula shine. At least this proposal would have an easy connection to downtown, especially the Gateway area. But there is NOTHING there right now - just big piles of gravel and whatever else came in on the lake freighters.  The trails are all on the other side of the river in this area. I hate to be cynical on a nice investment like this; it just feels like a miss. 
 

Here’s a thought - install a staircase up to the Lorain Carnegie Bridge top deck and the nice pedestrian lanes. At least it would be something. 

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10 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

This is great and I hope it works out; that said, I’d rather see this on the Columbus or Scranton peninsulas. Neither one of those is anywhere near critical mass of redevelopment yet. Cleveland Whiskey could have helped those areas more quickly reach their potential and I think it is more important to get those areas going.  (I don’t even know what this peninsula is called. Collision Bend Peninsula? Stones Levee Peninsula?) There aren’t any low level bridges from this peninsula to OC or Duck Island, so it’s going to feel very disconnected.  The low level W3rd bridge to Tremont isn’t particularly direct to the residential area. In contrast, both Columbus and Scranton are already nicely connected to both sides of the river, and @KJP’s awesome Viaduct infill Red Line station proposal could really make the Columbus peninsula shine. At least this proposal would have an easy connection to downtown, especially the Gateway area. But there is NOTHING there right now - just big piles of gravel and whatever else came in on the lake freighters.  The trails are all on the other side of the river in this area. I hate to be cynical on a nice investment like this; it just feels like a miss. 
 

Here’s a thought - install a staircase up to the Lorain Carnegie Bridge top deck and the nice pedestrian lanes. At least it would be something. 

 

Add a station on the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic RR at Flats South! 😉 

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1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

Add a station on the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic RR at Flats South! 😉 

 

But the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic RR doesn't go this far....hey wait!  Are you dropping those KJP hints again?

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17 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

(I don’t even know what this peninsula is called. Collision Bend Peninsula? Stones Levee Peninsula?)

 

The news 5 article has pictures of marketing material. Looks like they are going to try to brand this area as Flats South Bank.

 

And regarding connectivity we've talked before about rebuilding the Eagle Ave bridge, which would connect Scranton Peninsula to this development. That would help both areas a ton.

 

img-7190.JPG

Edited by Mendo
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I like the name “Flats Bank South” - it quickly gives an idea of where the location actually is and it strengthens the Flats “brand”.  Seems like there are a lot of neighborhood names in a small area already - this is simple- and it actually is a little more romantic than the reality - at least for now.   But this is another very positive development and if it comes together it’ll be extremely cool. Cleveland has the opportunity for a truly unique residential and recreational draw. 

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23 minutes ago, GISguy said:

coming soon! (sorry, just saw this in a work related site couldn't help myself lol).

 1591055520542.jpeg?w=1600&token=L5iye32I

Looks like Manhattan West in NYC? Part of Hudson Yards development?

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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18 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

I don’t even know what this peninsula is called. Collision Bend Peninsula? Stones Levee Peninsula?

Most literature and projects I've seen call it West 3rd Street Peninsula. Not exactly a catchy name though, so the name change makes sense.

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2 hours ago, Mendo said:

 

The news 5 article has pictures of marketing material. Looks like they are going to try to brand this area as Flats South Bank.

 

And regarding connectivity we've talked before about rebuilding the Eagle Ave bridge, which would connect Scranton Peninsula to this development. That would help both areas a ton.

 

img-7190.JPG

Are they trying to put a police district station there or something? And Loomis isn’t related to THAT Loomis is it? 🤔🤔

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