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Cleveland: Maingate Market Place

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Maingate Market Place plan could bring renewal to E 55th St. and Woodland Ave.

Published: Monday, July 19, 2010, 8:00 PM    Updated: Monday, July 19, 2010, 8:13 PM

Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer

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The intersection of E. 55th St. and Woodland Road, one of the busiest in Cleveland, is dominated by gas stations, fast food joints, and lots of asphalt and concrete.

 

If the Maingate Business Development Corp. has its way, five acres of sunburned grass and weeds at the southwest corner of the intersection could sprout something healthier and more appealing than the present landscape -- a new East Side market. Conceived as the gateway to the large but little-noticed cluster of food wholesaling businesses in the area, the Maingate Market Place would be the East Side's answer to the West Side Market.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2010/07/maingate_market_place_proposal.html

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I hope they find a way to provide some way for locals who grow stuff in personal/community gardens to sell their produce.  That would be neat, and I would make the trek down there to support those endeavours

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Great idea to revitalize a once spectacular intersection. The area is literally a nutritional wasteland/desert. This is what we should be approving and going out of our way to accommodate...and THIS is viable development. More fast food joints do nothing for the health of people in that area. I hope this works.

 

^^ I am sure that would be a component of this project. Good idea.

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Let me preface this by saying that I am excited about this development.  But that said, I don't like that we're calling this area a "nutritional desert".  There's a Dave's Supermarket, a full service grocery with fresh produce and all, just 500 yards (I measured in Google Earth) from this site.  Not for the first time I feel that we're brushing aside the accomplishments of those who've done some great work. Opening full service groceries in many of Cleveland's poorest neighborhoods is a community development achievement par excellence that Dave's can be proud of and that we shouldn't forget in our excitement over the next new idea.

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I'm all for this project too, the area certainly needs something to create vibrancy and better food options than Rallys & KFC, but the concentration of poverty and public housing in this area is probably the highest in the area...  within walking distance are 4 BIG CMHA properties: Willson Tower, King Kennedy, Outhwaite, Carver Park...  Of course, these people need better options for shopping than what they currently have, but many of the properties already have fresh food markets come and set up shop selling vegetables & fruit to the residents once a week or so, and it's not a big draw.  As long as this Maingate Marketplace is going to have so many local residents on public aid, there needs to be a real cultural shift toward healthier eating habits if this place is going to survive.

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I'm all for this project too, the area certainly needs something to create vibrancy and better food options than Rallys & KFC, but the concentration of poverty and public housing in this area is probably the highest in the area...  within walking distance are 4 BIG CMHA properties: Willson Tower, King Kennedy, Outhwaite, Carver Park...  Of course, these people need better options for shopping than what they currently have, but many of the properties already have fresh food markets come and set up shop selling vegetables & fruit to the residents once a week or so, and it's not a big draw.  As long as this Maingate Marketplace is going to have so many local residents on public aid, there needs to be a real cultural shift toward healthier eating habits if this place is going to survive.

 

The Wilson Tower is on Chester.

 

King Kennedy was demolished and rebuilt as the Village of Phoenix.  Carver Park was rebuilt.  In addition, middle class homes of Arbor Park were built between east 30 and 40 Streets.

 

Fresh food markets stands are temporary and I would think they would do a bad business as they are not permanet nor reliable.

 

This is brick and mortar development, comparing the two is appes and oranges.

 

What does public aid have to do with this?  It's money, Heinens and other supermarkets take benefits cards.  IIRC vendors in the WSM take benefits cards.  So what is the point?

 

This could be a draw for all types of people in the SE section of the city to shop in their neighborhood.  This could be a destination for those from all over the city to visit, just as they do the WSM.

 

In turn open up the industrial/commercial markets along 40 street as many have been there for a quite along time.

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I respect all those points MTS, but I still think this is a horrible location.  Just horrible.  It is not easily accessible for many east side folks.  I could probably make it to the WSM in about the same time it would take for me to get to 55th/Woodland.  If you think about it, you can get from this location to the WSM in about 10 minutes, so it is not that much more convenient for those who would live closer.

 

It actually seems like it would serve/intrigue people driving from Hinckley to work in UC more than it would someone like me who just doesn't go into that part of town that often and, when I do, it takes me 20-25 minutes to get there.

 

I also have no hope for that area becoming anything close to vibrant.  Stable perhaps.  But not vibrant.  If a city has to have a ghetto, the south side is where ours should be.  No more housing projects on the lake or Downtown or along the Euclid Corridor.  This is where they should go and there is plenty of land for it.

 

If this project does have potential to help facilitate revitilization of a neighborhood (which I believe it does if properly placed), I would much rather see it in Midtown or, better yet, incorporated into a project like Uptown or maybe even in the Lost Triangle just east of there.

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I know where Willson Tower is, thanks.  I also know that you're mistaken Phoenix Village for King Kennedy North Towers, two 6 story buildings behind it.  Who cares what properties were rebuilt either, that doesn't change the mindset of the residents within.  My point about the fresh fruit & veggie stands currently available is that they don't get frequented much by the residents because there isn't much demand, even when they come & setup right inside the property so residents don't even have to leave to get it!  Pretty much my entire point.  Could the project work?  Yes.  Could people from other areas come & visit they way they do the WSM?  Yes.  They'll have to, because it won't float on support of local residents, regardless if they pay with benefit cards.  My 2 cents.

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I know where Willson Tower is, thanks.  I also know that you're mistaken Phoenix Village for King Kennedy North Towers, two 6 story buildings behind it.  Who cares what properties were rebuilt either, that doesn't change the mindset of the residents within.  My point about the fresh fruit & veggie stands currently available is that they don't get frequented much by the residents because there isn't much demand.  Pretty much my entire point.  Could the project work?  Yes.  Could people from other areas come & visit they way they do the WSM?  Yes.  They'll have to, because it won't float on support of local residents, regardless if they pay with benefit cards.  My 2 cents.

 

So now you're speaking to the midset of the residents.  That's rich (pun intended) and condescending.  That's like me saying that certain people on urbanohio are all insignificant, poor people, because you don't have high six figure salaries and shop at (gasp & clutch my pearls) Macy's, Kohl's and JCPenney's.

 

I think this has a chance to be successful, but folks have to think outside the box.

 

Again, a fruit "stand" in an area where your coming in to temporary set up shop probably has a bad P&L not to mention offerings.  So if were going to say it's bad, we'll need to examine each individual vendor and each consumer.  Is it possible the vendor doesnt know the market?  Possible the vendor isn't bring quality goods worth buyings when a similar item can be bought at the grocery store?  I could go on!

 

I respect all those points MTS, but I still think this is a horrible location.  Just horrible.  It is not easily accessible for many east side folks.  I could probably make it to the WSM in about the same time it would take for me to get to 55th/Woodland.  If you think about it, you can get from this location to the WSM in about 10 minutes, so it is not that much more convenient for those who would live closer.

 

It actually seems like it would serve/intrigue people driving from Hinckley to work in UC more than it would someone like me who just doesn't go into that part of town that often and, when I do, it takes me 20-25 minutes to get there.

 

I also have no hope for that area becoming anything close to vibrant.  Stable perhaps.  But not vibrant.  If a city has to have a ghetto, the south side is where ours should be.  No more housing projects on the lake or Downtown or along the Euclid Corridor.  This is where they should go and there is plenty of land for it.

 

If this project does have potential to help facilitate revitilization of a neighborhood (which I believe it does if properly placed), I would much rather see it in Midtown or, better yet, incorporated into a project like Uptown or maybe even in the Lost Triangle just east of there.

 

You have a point.  If this was in those empty buildings at Carniege & 55th, that the folks here take pictures in, it might be a "better" location, today.

 

However, why not build about a trade that is already in that area?

 

Why are we affraid to step outside the box??  The folks in this area have to shop elsewhere for many, many things, why not build something unique in their area that is convient for them and that could be developed into a regional draw.  The WSM area was a battle zone, even in the early 80s.  Look at that area now.

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I really like this location. The reason is all the food wholesaling businesses in the area. Why not have a retail face for them in their front yard?

 

If the concern is safety, then change the neighborhood. It's a man-made thing so who or what else is going to change it? How do you break the cycle of poverty? By bringing jobs to the people who need them! By succumbing to fear and denying this project only preserves the cycle of poverty. All these people need are opportunities to break that cycle.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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It really has nothing to do with "succumbing to fear" for me.  The location is wrong for so many reasons it is hard to list them all and it has nothing to do with the vagrants and what some percieve as thugs (=black youth in anything other than church clothes) we see in the WSM area or downtown.  I am not against this project going in a "rough" area.  But I would prefer a location with real potential, which I find completely and totally lacking in this area.  This project really could be a catipult for the right neighborhood.  However, 55th/Woodland/Kinsman is not the right fit.  It is not a good walkable neighborhood and that intersection in particular is a pedestrian nightmare.  There are no other attractions that people would be in the area for.  There is no density in terms of residential or retail.  It is a commute route and that's about it.  Plus, I would bet that the local residents who do live there generally don't shop at places like WSM.  So many, many other vacant lots littered throughout the east side and I'd be hard pressed to find a worse location.  JMO.

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^^^ couldn't agree more.  E. 55th is 5 lanes wide?  Kinsman/Woodland is very busy too.  Only thing I might offer is that I've heard rumors that 55th is being studied as the next option for a Bus Rapid Transit design similar to what was done on Euclid.

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It used to be a tremendous pedestrian location. See what it looked like on historicaerials.com sometime. There are street-level views out there. This is the only one I could find, taken by the Cleveland Press in 1952 of the Reserve Building which I believe was on the SW corner of the intersection -- the same location where the market is proposed. There was also a movie theater here too...

 

Kinsman-E55-Woodland-ReserveBldg-c1.jpg

 

If your concern is that streets are too wide, then we should narrow them. If your concern is the density in the neighborhood isn't sufficient, don't you think this project would be a catalyst to change that?

 

I also found this Cleveland Press map of the area from 1957...

 

CentralPublicHousingmap-Press-1957.jpg

"Central area rebuilding which started in the 1930s with Cedar Apartments public housing project is scheduled to move faster in 1957. City officials hope to begin clearing slums for St. Vincent Center and Gladstone Industrial project and to start building in Area B." -- Cleveland Press photo caption, 1957.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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If your concern is the density in the neighborhood isn't sufficient, don't you think this project would be a catalyst to change that?

 

Honestly.... no.  Not this neighborhood.  Thanks for the photos though.  I wish they wouldn't have torn all that history down.

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^ I think I have to agree. The area is simply too devastated to recover. If you look at any emerging vibrant neighborhood in Cleveland or any other city, the key component is an existing supply of quality but aging buildings. Small businesses that draw diverse, eclectic crowds are the catalysts to gentrification of neighborhoods, and they can't afford to finance the construction of a new building.

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^ I think I have to agree. The area is simply too devastated to recover. 

 

Excuse me? So we should just build a wall around it and nuke what's left of it?

 

Cities last for 1,000s of years. You think anyone in 2500 is going to even remember what the condition of this neighborhood was like for a brief 50-100 years at the end of the 20th century or the early 21st century? But you think we should just nuke this neighborhood? Brilliant.

 

This is what I love  hate about America. No sense of place in history. We are all blips in time, but what we build is what can be immortal.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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^ I didn't mean to imply that the area would _never_ recover. But there are areas in the near vicinity with high-quality housing and retail stock that would be better candidates than this intersection. We have to set our priorities and build accordingly. We can't expect that plopping this market in the middle of a barren area is going to spur SimCity-like growth. Besides, a mix of new and old housing stock is what gives an area like Ohio City its charm as opposed to, say, Crocker Park.

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"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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Do I have to edit my post? Jesus, I thought we were on the same page here. If Cleveland becomes a boom town again, of course every square inch of real estate will be valuable, and 55th and Woodland might just recover. DUH! But we have to be frank about the reality we're facing here and not squander scarce development funds in areas where it will have little impact when there are far greater opportunities to create more bright spots in the city. If you put the market here, expect an area more like Cedar/Warrensville rather than Ohio City. Fine if you think any development is good development, but I despise car-centric development and I'd rather leave that intersection full of gas stations than build another strip mall inside city limits. I wouldn't consider such development a "recovery."

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No, you don't have to edit your post just because we're not on the same page. I say you take development where you can get it. My preference is for pedestrian-oriented development. But if you have to build something quasi-car centric to stabilize the area, do it.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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Nobody is saying "tear the neighborhood down".... or the more extreme, drop a nuke.  The neighborhood is not beyond hope.  However, we always piss and moan about piss-poor 'planning' and this is an example of that IMO.  If that neighborhood recovers it will be because of an outgrowth from any success Midtown has over the next 50-100 years.  Putting this market at this location is like feeding a tic-tac to a whale.  It's urban sprawl when we should be putting something like this in a neighborhood that has real momentum (i.e. UC) or at least the potential for real momentum and immediate spin-off development (i.e. Midtown, Waterloo, Asiatown).  If I had any influence over this non-profit group, I would beg them to reconsider location because the concept is spot on for the eastside.

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That's like me saying that certain people on urbanohio are all insignificant, poor people, because you don't have high six figure salaries and shop at (gasp & clutch my pearls) Macy's, Kohl's and JCPenney's.

 

He never said it made them insignificant.  He's just pointing out that if the fact is that people aren't shopping at fresh fruit stands put right in their buildings, it may not be a good business decision to put such a store there if you want it to be supported by the local population.  It's not placing a judgment on the residents, but rather on the business based on the residents' buying patterns.

 

Now there are other factors which should be taken into account, such as are the people not supporting those markets because the quality is bad or they're not advertised well, or is it that they literally would rather just eat fast food?  I'm not saying he's right or wrong about their buying patterns, but it's surely worth investigating and isn't a judgement on the people themselves.

 

If you were going to build a Barney's, you would probably look at the shopping patterns of the nearby residents first to know whether they were going to patronize your store.  If they will, great, if not, that's fine too, you just don't build it.  It doesn't mean you think they're insignificant people.

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I'd rather see it closer to 55th and Broadway, IMO. That place has some real potential with its housing stock, but unfortunately it has been hit quite hard since the credit crisis. I think a market like this could really help to save that area from the wrecking ball.

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If you take a look at who goes to the West Side Market (especially near the end of the day), the folks who shop there look a lot more like folks who live near E. 55th and Woodland than those who live in Cleveland Heights. Now, imagine if there was a similar market at 55th and Woodland. Don't you think crossing a 5 lane street (but with improvements for pedestrians) would be a significant improvement?

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We're getting alot of discussion on the surrounding neighborhood and residents and ignoring the fact that there's a big chunk of vacant land for a good sized building & parking lot, located on a busy intersection.  That right there makes it a great location in the eyes of most developers.

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There is a parking lot where Bessemer runs into E. 55th.  South of 490 rather than north.

 

There is also the former Hospital site at Broadway between McBride and Fowler.

 

The parking lot looks to be the same distance from the Rapid stop.  The old Hospital site is 30% further away.

 

I think getting this into Slavic Village helps the city save Slavic village which is disintegrating before our eyes and should be a higher priority than trying to revitalize nothingness.

 

This puts the facility close enough to the wholesalers at that corner and into an area that has some interesting housing/architectural elements rather than smack dab in the middle of an industrial/abandoned area.  Which could help turn slavic village into Ohio city. 

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Let me preface this by saying that I am excited about this development.  But that said, I don't like that we're calling this area a "nutritional desert".  There's a Dave's Supermarket, a full service grocery with fresh produce and all, just 500 yards (I measured in Google Earth) from this site.  Not for the first time I feel that we're brushing aside the accomplishments of those who've done some great work. Opening full service groceries in many of Cleveland's poorest neighborhoods is a community development achievement par excellence that Dave's can be proud of and that we shouldn't forget in our excitement over the next new idea.

 

There are some better options as you're indicating, but the bad, as it stands right now, outweighs the good. Why? Many reasons, but one thing to note is that there has been a whole generation raised on little of anything else except the fast food scene. This has helped to develop very bad eating habits and choices that are accepted as the norm, when in reality, is is nutritionally dysfunctional. You cannot argue that one should make better eating choices when all they have been used to is mostly fast food. While Dave's is ok...most of the food in the supermarkets is still processed crap and in many areas, have not set the proper standard for nutrition, and will simply sell "what sell" no matter how crappy the food item.....

 

And, what "sells" is that has been given the luxury of the most advertising...and the most government subsidy. You will find that crops that will ultimately be used in lesser nutritious  foods, get more subsidy and ultimately get advertised the most, hence creating the "demand" and therefore contributes to getting our youth and others hooked on poor foods.

 

So, in the larger scale, compared to the constant endless budget that markets crappy foods....it is still, overall, a nutritional wasteland---and calling it such is not at all meant to undermine or ignore the efforts of those who are trying to make it better and who HAVE added a lot, not at all. Rather, the label is given to address what a difficult challenge and effort it takes in trying to wean the public away from trash disguised and packaged as "food" amidst the constant influx of crap they are exposed to...and more so in some areas. This just happens to be one of them.

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^^ I really like the idea of locating it on the hospital site. Slavic Village is exactly the place a market like this needs to be located in order to bring money to the local businesses there. Does the county or city still own the site?

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I really like this location. The reason is all the food wholesaling businesses in the area. Why not have a retail face for them in their front yard?

 

If the concern is safety, then change the neighborhood. It's a man-made thing so who or what else is going to change it? How do you break the cycle of poverty? By bringing jobs to the people who need them! By succumbing to fear and denying this project only preserves the cycle of poverty. All these people need are opportunities to break that cycle.

 

Good points. This is why this may be a good area to start. We can start by creating a healthier populace if we want to revitalize areas. In the US largely, there is a pervasive myth that eating well/healthier has to cost a lot. It is time we "un-learn" that b.s. that has had the junk food industry thrive in light of it.

 

Better foods have even been proven to change bad behavior and help in better learning. The fact that the distribution facilities are near by and can offer a retail face....can be a spark, as long as what they are distributing is not all a bunch of junk foods such as Cheetos, Grape Pop, (or any fizz drink), candy, sugar laden sports drinks, etc..etc..  All of which, I might add, has their packaging ending up on the ground. Just take a look around.

 

Ok, but before we all get exited about this project..... How far is it from really becoming a reality, seeing that many projects are announced long before we will ever begin to see any movement.

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"We can't expect that plopping this market in the middle of a barren area is going to spur SimCity-like growth."

 

I found that ironic because, unfortunately, that is what too often occurs in exurbia.  Why not here?  I'm not saying that you will see Avon-esque housing growth because of this project, but it may help increase additional investment income, which helps to lift all ships.

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"We can't expect that plopping this market in the middle of a barren area is going to spur SimCity-like growth."

 

I found that ironic because, unfortunately, that is what too often occurs in exurbia.  Why not here?  I'm not saying that you will see Avon-esque housing growth because of this project, but it may help increase additional investment income, which helps to lift all ships.

 

The main issues I see is that much of the land space north of the intersection is saturated with newly built projects that will not reach the end of their useful life for many years, and the traffic. I think the highest form of development one could expect here are a few strip malls or big-box stores, especially given the truck traffic in the area. Locating the market in an already-established neighborhood like Slavic Village can really give that neighborhood a boost toward being a talked-about hotspot of the city and create that "critical mass" of creative, artistic entrepreneurs that can make the area flourish. We need more of these areas, and we can't squander an opportunity like this one.

 

We have to stop making the same mistakes we've been making for the past 50 years in this city. Suburban development within the city limits has been one of the major catalysts for the failure of the area. We need to STOP doing this at once and focus on saving what we haven't paved over for surface parking yet.

 

We can use county funds to put up parking lots and retail malls anywhere in the city. But the only thing that is going to make this city turn the corner is an influx of people. And they won't come just because we managed to lure a Home Depot to 55th and Woodland.

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There is a parking lot where Bessemer runs into E. 55th.  South of 490 rather than north.

 

There is also the former Hospital site at Broadway between McBride and Fowler.

...

I think getting this into Slavic Village helps the city save Slavic village which is disintegrating before our eyes and should be a higher priority than trying to revitalize nothingness.

 

The old St. Michael's/St. Alexis Hospital site is where the Fast Track Cycling folks want to build their velodrome.  I don't know who owns the parking lot that you are talking about, but for a market, it is a significantly worse site. It's not on a major intersection like the intended site on 55th & Woodland, and there are fewer households within walking distance.

 

By the bye, Burten Bell Carr CDC is working pretty damn hard in the neighborhood north of Woodland, and there has been significant reinvestment in the public housing on the part of CMHA. Let's not call that neighborhood "nothingness".

 

Ok, but before we all get exited about this project..... How far is it from really becoming a reality, seeing that many projects are announced long before we will ever begin to see any movement.

 

Well... judging from the article, since there are no funds that have yet been dedicated for its development, it's kinda far, but since there seem to be the right folks involved, it could happen.

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^ I think I have to agree. The area is simply too devastated to recover. If you look at any emerging vibrant neighborhood in Cleveland or any other city, the key component is an existing supply of quality but aging buildings. Small businesses that draw diverse, eclectic crowds are the catalysts to gentrification of neighborhoods, and they can't afford to finance the construction of a new building.

 

So we should not think outside the box?  If a developer is willing to build, I would assume they've done their due dilegence and analysts.  Just because some don't like it, doesn't mean it's bad.  Can I ask when the last time you've been in this neighborhood?

 

If you take a look at who goes to the West Side Market (especially near the end of the day), the folks who shop there look a lot more like folks who live near E. 55th and Woodland than those who live in Cleveland Heights. Now, imagine if there was a similar market at 55th and Woodland. Don't you think crossing a 5 lane street (but with improvements for pedestrians) would be a significant improvement?

 

BINGO!

 

There is a parking lot where Bessemer runs into E. 55th.  South of 490 rather than north.

 

There is also the former Hospital site at Broadway between McBride and Fowler.

 

The parking lot looks to be the same distance from the Rapid stop.  The old Hospital site is 30% further away.

 

I think getting this into Slavic Village helps the city save Slavic village which is disintegrating before our eyes and should be a higher priority than trying to revitalize nothingness.

This puts the facility close enough to the wholesalers at that corner and into an area that has some interesting housing/architectural elements rather than smack dab in the middle of an industrial/abandoned area.  Which could help turn slavic village into Ohio city. 

 

So it's ok to save slavic village than to plant a seed of revival in Central?  Humm? 

 

Nothingness?  I guess all those people in arbor park are nothing?  Those aren't poor people but middle class families.

 

Again, why shouldn't they have a development in their neighborhood?

 

That's like me saying that certain people on urbanohio are all insignificant, poor people, because you don't have high six figure salaries and shop at (gasp & clutch my pearls) Macy's, Kohl's and JCPenney's.

 

He never said it made them insignificant.  He's just pointing out that if the fact is that people aren't shopping at fresh fruit stands put right in their buildings, it may not be a good business decision to put such a store there if you want it to be supported by the local population.  It's not placing a judgment on the residents, but rather on the business based on the residents' buying patterns.

 

Now there are other factors which should be taken into account, such as are the people not supporting those markets because the quality is bad or they're not advertised well, or is it that they literally would rather just eat fast food?  I'm not saying he's right or wrong about their buying patterns, but it's surely worth investigating and isn't a judgement on the people themselves.

 

If you were going to build a Barney's, you would probably look at the shopping patterns of the nearby residents first to know whether they were going to patronize your store.  If they will, great, if not, that's fine too, you just don't build it.  It doesn't mean you think they're insignificant people.

As I said before both sides of the equation need to be reviewed?  Correct?  Granted that's neither the point.

 

It appears some thing this area is bad for more than just one reason.  It amazes me how we can list a development in an area already know for it's food markets, we try to build upon it and its thought of as a waste.  The industry is already there.

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"We can't expect that plopping this market in the middle of a barren area is going to spur SimCity-like growth."

 

I found that ironic because, unfortunately, that is what too often occurs in exurbia.  Why not here?  I'm not saying that you will see Avon-esque housing growth because of this project, but it may help increase additional investment income, which helps to lift all ships.

 

The main issues I see is that much of the land space north of the intersection is saturated with newly built projects that will not reach the end of their useful life for many years, and the traffic. I think the highest form of development one could expect here are a few strip malls or big-box stores, especially given the truck traffic in the area. Locating the market in an already-established neighborhood like Slavic Village can really give that neighborhood a boost toward being a talked-about hotspot of the city and create that "critical mass" of creative, artistic entrepreneurs that can make the area flourish. We need more of these areas, and we can't squander an opportunity like this one.

 

We have to stop making the same mistakes we've been making for the past 50 years in this city. Suburban development within the city limits has been one of the major catalysts for the failure of the area. We need to STOP doing this at once and focus on saving what we haven't paved over for surface parking yet.

 

We can use county funds to put up parking lots and retail malls anywhere in the city. But the only thing that is going to make this city turn the corner is an influx of people. And they won't come just because we managed to lure a Home Depot to 55th and Woodland.

 

And everything you've said can be applied to Central.

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So we should not think outside the box? If a developer is willing to build, I would assume they've done their due dilegence and analysts. Just because some don't like it, doesn't mean it's bad. Can I ask when the last time you've been in this neighborhood?

 

Well, as far as I understand, the county is going to give them the land, and I'm assuming there are some grants and loans forthcoming, too, so they have some pull in where the project is located. Honestly, I didn't mean to imply that the area is crime-ridden or unsuitable for visitors by saying "devastated;" I was only referring to the fact that most if not all of the old apartment blocks and street retail are gone from the area, replaced by suburban commercial development.

 

I've been through the intersection several times on my way to Slavic Village and Washington Park. Frankly, it wouldn't excite me one bit if I got to see a little Mayfield Heights strip-mall town develop there. It's not going to help out the project-dwellers very much, as they already have a Dave's and although there have been anecdotes about the "type" of people who shop at WSM, there is no disputing that shopping there is more expensive than a supermarket. A market like this can do a lot more good for a community that already has housing stock and a commercial business district, giving a ready-made springboard for low-margin entrepreneurs to creatively serve the influx of visitors. We have the opportunity to put another walkable, urban, visitor-friendly Cleveland neighborhood on the map!

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So we should not think outside the box?  If a developer is willing to build, I would assume they've done their due dilegence and analysts.  Just because some don't like it, doesn't mean it's bad.  Can I ask when the last time you've been in this neighborhood?

 

Well, as far as I understand, the county is going to give them the land, and I'm assuming there are some grants and loans forthcoming, too, so they have some pull in where the project is located. Honestly, I didn't mean to imply that the area is crime-ridden or unsuitable for visitors by saying "devastated;" I was only referring to the fact that most if not all of the old apartment blocks and street retail are gone from the area, replaced by suburban commercial development.

 

I've been through the intersection several times on my way to Slavic Village and Washington Park. Frankly, it wouldn't excite me one bit if I got to see a little Mayfield Heights strip-mall town develop there. It's not going to help out the project-dwellers very much, as they already have a Dave's and although there have been anecdotes about the "type" of people who shop at WSM, there is no disputing that shopping there is more expensive than a supermarket. A market like this can do a lot more good for a community that already has housing stock and a commercial business district, giving a ready-made springboard for low-margin entrepreneurs to creatively serve the influx of visitors. We have the opportunity to put another walkable, urban, visitor-friendly Cleveland neighborhood on the map!

 

And that is exactly what is happening on Woodland!

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And that is exactly what is happening on Woodland!

 

Put down the pipe, man. If people are walking from the towers to the Church's Chicken, or to the gas station for cigarettes, it's because they have to, not because it's enjoyable. Look, that area has automobile traffic so high that the optimal use of that intersection is for car-centric development. Ugly, ugly, ugly, pedestrian-unfriendly, car-centric development. You'll never catch me dead walking between strip malls in Mayfield Heights. But put me on Lee Road at Cedar, and I'll walk the whole length of the street, because I enjoy the architecture, the window shopping, and the general liveliness of people going about their business.

Now, you could either put the market at this intersection and cross your fingers that somebody is going to knock down the chicken place and the gas station and replace it with pedestrian-friendly streetfront retail, but that costs money. Lots and lots of money. Your other option is to locate the market among buildings that already support streetfront retail, in decent restorable condition. Not to mention that the rent will be far cheaper for a business who wants to ride the wave of the market patrons if they locate in a pre-existing building rather than a new construction. Which area do you think is more likely to thrive?

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And that is exactly what is happening on Woodland!

 

Put down the pipe, man. If people are walking from the towers to the Church's Chicken, or to the gas station for cigarettes, it's because they have to, not because it's enjoyable. Look, that area has automobile traffic so high that the optimal use of that intersection is for car-centric development. Ugly, ugly, ugly, pedestrian-unfriendly, car-centric development. You'll never catch me dead walking between strip malls in Mayfield Heights. But put me on Lee Road at Cedar, and I'll walk the whole length of the street, because I enjoy the architecture, the window shopping, and the general liveliness of people going about their business.

Now, you could either put the market at this intersection and cross your fingers that somebody is going to knock down the chicken place and the gas station and replace it with pedestrian-friendly streetfront retail, but that costs money. Lots and lots of money. Your other option is to locate the market among buildings that already support streetfront retail, in decent restorable condition. Not to mention that the rent will be far cheaper for a business who wants to ride the wave of the market patrons if they locate in a pre-existing building rather than a new construction. Which area do you think is more likely to thrive?

 

You have to start somewhere! Right?  You're thinking about what is there now.  With this development the area will change.  Again, look outside the box.

 

WHAT TOWERS are you talking about??

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"WHAT TOWERS are you talking about??"

 

Just a general term for the CMHA buildings. I watch too much of "The Wire." :)

 

It's going to take a great deal of "outside the box" financing to turn that area into anything other than a strip mall. I'm just saying that we're ignoring the assets we already have (good housing and commercial building stock) in favor of building on empty land, that's all. It seems our history is replete with forsaking historic districts of dense mixed-use communities in favor of suburban-style development, and I just don't see any other outcome for such a project in this location. I'm really worried that more unique neighborhoods are going to lose the battle to blight and suburbanization if we focus too much on developing empty land.

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"WHAT TOWERS are you talking about??"

 

Just a general term for the CMHA buildings. I watch too much of "The Wire." :)

 

It's going to take a great deal of "outside the box" financing to turn that area into anything other than a strip mall. I'm just saying that we're ignoring the assets we already have (good housing and commercial building stock) in favor of building on empty land, that's all. It seems our history is replete with forsaking historic districts of dense mixed-use communities in favor of suburban-style development, and I just don't see any other outcome for such a project in this location. I'm really worried that more unique neighborhoods are going to lose the battle to blight and suburbanization if we focus too much on developing empty land.

 

OK.  I'll cut you some slack cause you watch the wire, but you're on thin ice mister!

 

Again, look outside the box.  As I've said before any time there is announcement people can always come up with negatives, but can't come up with positives.  Over the years here weve had people say projects will fail, only to find they are steady and improving.  Examples include, East Forth, Steelyard Commons.

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^ I don't doubt that this market will be an asset to wherever it's located. I just think that in the grand scheme of things, it could hurt the city as a whole. In my experience, the only people who really ever have had the money to build commercial space from scratch have been big-box stores and supermarkets, in all but the wealthiest of areas. So, no, the market won't be a "failure" for the people who buy and sell in the market, or the residents located near the market, but if it encourages that area to be developed into a strip-mall and some other historic district withers and dies from lack of attention, I think we've lost more than we've gained.

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^ I don't doubt that this market will be an asset to wherever it's located. I just think that in the grand scheme of things, it could hurt the city as a whole. In my experience, the only people who really ever have had the money to build commercial space from scratch have been big-box stores and supermarkets, in all but the wealthiest of areas. So, no, the market won't be a "failure" for the people who buy and sell in the market, or the residents located near the market, but if it encourages that area to be developed into a strip-mall and some other historic district withers and dies from lack of attention, I think it's a net negative.

 

In your experience??  Exactly what is "your experience"??

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With this development the area will change.

 

What makes you think that?  I can see that there's a possibility, but I think there's a higher likelihood that this development falls flat on its face.  One of the few comments I have ever seen on cleveland.com that brought up a good point mentioned that the East Side Market on the northeast corner of E. 105th and St. Clair, which would seemingly be a better location than this one for a market, is pretty much vacant.

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=St+Clair+Ave+%26+E+105th+St,+Cleveland,+Cuyahoga,+Ohio+44108&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=49.444078,114.169922&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=FcLUeQIdTqUi-w&split=0&hq=&hnear=St+Clair+Ave+%26+E+105th+St,+Cleveland,+Cuyahoga,+Ohio+44108&z=16&layer=c&cbll=41.539158,-81.614672&panoid=UVthTtVXyrSQnJJbfs6lZA&cbp=12,348.81,,0,4.24

 

EDIT: I see that buckeye1 already photographed it and MTS commented that it's the "red-headed stepchild of the Central Market".

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With this development the area will change.

 

What makes you think that?  I can see that there's a possibility, but I think there's a higher likelihood that this development falls flat on its face.  One of the few comments I have ever seen on cleveland.com that brought up a good point mentioned that they tried a similar concept on the northeast corner of E. 105th and St. Clair not too long ago, which would seemingly be a better location than this one for a market, and that one is completely vacant already.

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=St Clair Ave %26 E 105th St, Cleveland, Cuyahoga, Ohio 44108&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=49.444078,114.169922&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=FcLUeQIdTqUi-w&split=0&hq=&hnear=St Clair Ave %26 E 105th St, Cleveland, Cuyahoga, Ohio 44108&z=16&layer=c&cbll=41.539158,-81.614672&panoid=UVthTtVXyrSQnJJbfs6lZA&cbp=12,348.81,,0,4.24

 

The New Eastside Market on 105 and this are two different things.  That was suppose to emulate WSM but they couldn't get vendors for the size space and their were leasing issues.  We have thread on that somewhere here.

 

 

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In your experience?? Exactly what is "your experience"??

 

When was the last time you saw any building with streetfront retail be built in an area (a) without pre-existing wealth and (b) without other established businesses located in old housing stock? I haven't. And we're not talking about Cracker Park here, either.

 

If you read the book in my signature, Jane Jacobs lists four elements to creating a vital, vibrant neighborhood:

 

1) high density of residents

2) mixed-use zoning

3) a mix of old and new buildings

4) short blocks.

 

The first element is the only one that is arguably already present in that area. Jacobs places particular emphasis on element number 3, citing "urban renewal" as the reason why new, chic developments often turn to blight in a few short years. Old buildings beget cheap rents, which bring in a diversity of businesses. Like I said, art galleries and tea houses couldn't possibly afford to pay the rent in a new construction. That title is reserved for high-volume businesses, like supermarkets and big-box stores.

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In your experience??  Exactly what is "your experience"??

 

When was the last time you saw any building with streetfront retail be built in an area (a) without pre-existing wealth and (b) without other established businesses located in old housing stock? I haven't. And we're not talking about Cracker Park here, either.

 

If you read the book in my signature, Jane Jacobs lists four elements to creating a vital, vibrant neighborhood:

 

1) high density of residents

2) mixed-use zoning

3) a mix of old and new buildings

4) short blocks.

 

The first element is the only one that is arguably already present in that area. Jacobs places particular emphasis on element number 3, citing "urban renewal" as the reason why new, chic developments often turn to blight in a few short years. Old buildings beget cheap rents, which bring in a diversity of businesses. Like I said, art galleries and tea houses couldn't possibly afford to pay the rent in a new construction. That title is reserved for high-volume businesses, like supermarkets and big-box stores.

 

No...No.  I asked what your experience was.  It's not a hard a question to answer.

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