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Warren County: San Mar Gale housing development (Oregonia)

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Going for it

Developers plot career-making project in Warren County

Laura Baverman

Staff Writer

 

Bill Hines and Dan Griffin call their next land development pro­ject the opportunity of a lifetime.

 

In fact, it might take the rest of the partners' lifetimes to complete. After three years of planning, Hines/Griffin Land Development will present Warren County commissioners with a plan for a 3,400-acre residential development in Oregonia, a chunk of Warren County two miles north of downtown Lebanon in Turtlecreek Township.

 

...

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2005/08/08/story7.html

 

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"it would have to be the epitome of "smart growth" in order to appease the county commissioners"

 

I think their idea of smart growth is quite different than mine.

 

"Rather than cram many lots onto a small piece of property, lots will be spread out and built and landscaped so each home is secluded"

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^ Sadly, that seems to be a typical approach to "smart growth" in suburbia.  There is zero interest in containing sprawl.

 

It's fine that they want to ease the strain on infrastructure and so forth, but unless their maximum density is going to be outright rural (which it surely won't), then it's still just bad suburban sprawl.

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This is just a damn shame.  They're STILL going to do it.  From the 8/11/05 Lebanon Western Star:

 

 

Huge development on horizon

Opposition expected to project in Turtlecreek Twp.

Thursday, August 11, 2005

 

Plans for the largest single development in Warren County history will come this fall, a Cincinnati-based developer said last week.

 

Hines-Griffin Land Development Company hopes to submit plans for a 3,400 acre “rural village” — on property owned by the heirs of Ralph J. Stolle near Oregonia — to the Warren County Regional Planning Commission in September, Bill Hines said.

 

...

 

http://www.western-star.com/hp/content/news/stories/2005/08/11/ws0811stolle.html

 

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From the 9/29/05 Lebanon Western Star:

 

 

LINK: San Mar Gale proposal (PDF)

 

Hundreds voice opposition to Turtlecreek Twp. development

San Mar Gale met with tough questions, criticism from public

Thursday, September 29, 2005

 

The developers behind a plan to construct 2,850 homes on 3,335 acres in eastern Turtlecreek Twp. faced heated questions from residents concerned about the development’s size and density at Tuesday night’s Warren County Rural Zoning Commission meeting.

 

After hearing questions and concerns from the crowd of more than 250, the commission voted to continue the public hearing before making a final decision on whether to recommend the zoning changes requested by Hines-Griffin Land Development Co.

 

...

 

http://www.western-star.com/hp/content/news/stories/2005/09/29/ws0929sanmargale.html


From the 10/6/05 Lebanon Western Star:

 

 

Residents rally against development

Group forms to fight proposal; public forums continue

Thursday, October 06, 2005

 

Residents hoping to influence the future of 3,335 acres in eastern Turtlecreek Twp. near Oregonia will meet Monday to voice their concerns and organize opposition to a 2,850-home development proposed for the land.

 

Two days later, Hines-Griffin Land Development Co. will hold the first of two meetings aimed at educating the public and addressing concerns at the Lebanon High School’s cafeteria.

 

...

 

http://www.western-star.com/news/content/news/stories/2005/10/06/ws1006sanmargale.html

 

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Oregonia braces for huge hit

2,850 homes planned for site near Lebanon

By Janice Morse

Enquirer staff writer

 

TURTLECREEK TWP. - A huge development - one of the largest in Southwest Ohio history - is poised to carve big changes into a 3,335-acre wedge of Warren County.

 

Developer Bill Hines says he and his partner, Dan Griffin, spent three years putting together a plan that is both attractive and environmentally sound. They intend to spend decades on the project, which includes 2,850 homes, adding a village town center and building recreation paths on 1,000 acres of preserved green space - larger than Hamilton County's Sharon Woods Park.

 

...

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051012/NEWS01/510120356/1056/rss02

 

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Warren zoning panel gives nod to massive housing development

By Janice Morse

Enquirer staff writer

 

LEBANON - A proposed development that could be one of the largest in Southwest Ohio history cleared a major hurdle Tuesday, gaining approval from a Warren County zoning board.

 

The Rural Zoning Commission voted 4-1 to approve a "planned unit development" - a mixture of residential and commercial uses - on 3,335 acres of Turtlecreek Township, after a standing-room-only crowd of about 200 people filled the county commissioners' meeting room for an intense two-hour hearing on the proposal. Board member Gary Duncan cast the sole "no" vote.

 

...

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051026/NEWS01/510260415/1056

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“People value rare things,” Hall said. “ I do believe Oregonia as it is now is a rare thing and that should be valued.”

 

Im a big Oregonia fan, too.  That place is really special in a difficult-to-describe way.  I dont feel Im in Ohio there.

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SaveOregonia.org

 

Mission Statement: Save Oregonia.org exists to preserve the tradition, scenery, and heritage of Oregonia and the surrounding community by protecting the existing wildlife, waterways, historic sites, and farmlands. Our primary goal is to promote awareness among the citizens about developments in the area.

 

I should post some of my Oregonia pix.

 

 

 

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Village may get OK today

Size, scope of San Mar Gale would be unique to region

By Janice Morse

Enquirer staff writer

 

TURTLECREEK TWP. - Bill Hines and Dan Griffin want to build Ohio's next village - from scratch.

 

Starting with a 5-square-mile tract just outside tiny, rural Oregonia, the developers plan to build a community of about 2,000 homes plus more than 400 town houses and retirement dwellings. The project could take three decades to complete.

 

...

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051222/NEWS01/512220361

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"It sounds like a hybrid," McMahon said. "They're doing some things that are progressive and some things that are conventional."

 

And herein lies the problem.  Although I can't fully give an opinion without seeing the plan, this sounds like it could set a precedent in the region.  It should be done right, not as a hybrid.  The first major flaw that I already see is that the public was not involved from the beginning.  This makes a huge difference in terms of public support for these types of projects.

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"it would have to be the epitome of "smart growth" in order to appease the county commissioners"

 

I think their idea of smart growth is quite different than mine.

 

"Rather than cram many lots onto a small piece of property, lots will be spread out and built and landscaped so each home is secluded"

 

:roll:

 

Warren County Smart Growth at its worst.

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I think this is a cool idea I just wish it was in  Hamilton County and not in east bufu.  There are places in the county this could be done, especially the western parts. 

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Friday, December 23, 2005

'Village' plans to be heard again

Warren Co. commissioners have questions on massive project

By Janice Morse

Enquirer staff writer

 

LEBANON - Warren County commissioners have set a second hearing to hear more details and testimony before making a decision on a 3,239-acre rezoning request that would create a new village in Turtlecreek Township near the rural community of Oregonia.

 

More than 120 residents showed up Thursday for a hearing that lasted more than three hours on the proposed San Mar Gale development. After officials peppered the developers with questions for more than two hours, about half the people left.

 

...

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051223/NEWS01/512230385/1056/news01

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Kilburn criticized the density of 0.85 units per acre and said, "The more houses and the more people you get, the more you're going to approach problems with health and safety and welfare. ... We've got to get these numbers down."Wow does this person know what sprawl is. The more dense you are, the more financially feasible the infrastructure will be.Eg Sewers.

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I think this is a cool idea I just wish it was in  Hamilton County and not in east bufu.  There are places in the county this could be done, especially the western parts. 

 

It is done and done correctly in Hamilton County, like the articles say - see Indian Hill.  Indian Hill though is not reclaimed farm land, outside of a few farms that are in Indian Hill the land is preserved in its original state.  We don't need more of this in Hamilton County like unusualfire mentions above, the more dense you are the more financially feasible the infrastructure will.

 

Oregonia is a nice area, we have gone canoeing there several times and enjoy the rural aspect of it and to see that area turned into a Faux Indian Hill is disappointing.  For one where will this money be coming from?  While the Cincinnati Metro is growing at a rate of about 9%, that isn't enough to fill this development as planned considering the income that will be required to live there so what you will get is the continued drain of money from Hamilton County.  These developers are just shuffling people around the metro in the worst way.

 

 

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If the commissioner is worried about .85 units to the acre, the developers have a LOT of convincing to do.  He's making is sound like the conditions would resemble the early-century tenements of New York. 

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From the Cox News Service, 1/5/06:

 

 

Commissioners delay zoning change for San Mar Gale

By Daniel Wells

Cox News Service

 

San Mar Gale's developers will have to wait another month for a zoning change that will allow them to proceed with the construction of their planned 2,429-home village in eastern Turtlecreek Twp.

 

The Warren County commissioners voted Dec. 22 to continue the public hearing on the zoning change until Jan. 26 after hearing testimony from Hines-Griffin Land Development Co. and residents.

 

...

 

http://www.daytondailynews.com/community/content/localnews/neighbors/warren/0105sanmargale.html

 

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More will be in tomorrow's DDN.  This is from the 1/11/06 edition:

 

 

New roads, traffic controls needed for development's homes, study says

By Daniel Wells

Cox News Service

 

TURTLECREEK TWP., Warren County | San Mar Gale's effects on traffic will reach far beyond the proposed housing and retail development's boundaries, according to a traffic study submitted by the developer to Warren County officials.

 

Traffic generated by the 2,429-home village, which Hines-Griffin Land Development Co. plans to build over 30 years on 3,239 acres in rural eastern Turtlecreek Twp., will require installing nine new traffic signals, widening roads and rebuilding an intersection.

 

...

 

http://www.daytondailynews.com/localnews/content/localnews/daily/0111warrenweb.html

 

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From the 1/18/06 Dayton Daily News:

 

 

Warning issued on project near Little Miami River

Warren County commissioners told restrictions needed

By Lawrence Budd

Dayton Daily News

 

LEBANON | State officials sounded an alarm Tuesday about a 2,400-house subdivision proposed along the Little Miami River in Warren County.

 

"We wanted to raise some issues of concern," said Robert Gable Jr., manager of the Ohio Scenic River program.

 

...

 

http://www.daytondailynews.com/localnews/content/localnews/daily/0118scenic.html

 

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From the 1/26/06 Lebanon Western Star:

 

 

San Mar Gale hearing continues Jan. 26

Thursday, January 26, 2006

 

The San Mar Gale public hearing will resume at 6 p.m. tonight, but a decision on the rezoning may take longer.

 

Hines-Griffin Land Development Co. is requesting a planned unit development overlay for 3,239 acres in eastern Turtlecreek Twp. on which it hopes to construct 2,429 homes. The zoning change would allow a mix of residential and commercial uses.

 

The developer is also requesting zoning changes for 22.5 acres of businesses and 304 acres of higher density homes.

 

...

 

http://www.western-star.com/news/content/news/stories/2006/01/26/ws0126sanmargale.html

 

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From the 1/27/06 Enquirer:

 

 

San Mar Gale debate gets heated

Commissioner: Take your plans elsewhere

BY JANICE MORSE | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

 

LEBANON - Warren County Commissioner Mike Kilburn raised his voice, pointed his finger and his face turned red as he unleashed an impassioned tirade against developers' proposal to build a 3,200-acre village from scratch.

 

"Folks, this is insane!" he said Thursday.

 

...

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060127/NEWS01/601270416/1056/rss02

 

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From the 1/28/06 Enquirer:

 

 

Zoning dispute thickens

Lines drawn in Turtlecreek Twp.

BY JANICE MORSE | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

 

LEBANON - Some citizens are threatening a petition drive to have Turtlecreek Township voters decide a rezoning case, because they think 2,429 homes in the proposed Village of San Mar Gale is too many.

 

Developers say they would drop their rezoning request rather than face a ballot issue. Under existing zoning for the land, combined with a proposed sewer plant that local government cannot stop, they could build twice as many homes as currently proposed.

 

...

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060128/NEWS01/601280372/1056/rss02

 

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"People moved out here so they could live in the country - and Starbucks does not belong in the country. We don't mind driving four miles to get our cup of coffee," she said.
Wow and these are the same people that drive 20-30 miles to work making traffic worse for everyone else.

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From the 2/15/06 Enquirer:

 

 

San Mar Gale still viable

Opposition to proposed 'village' may be waning

BY JANICE MORSE | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

 

LEBANON -- Developers of a proposed new village in Warren County are assembling "Plan B."

 

But Bill Hines and Dan Griffin aren't ready to scrap their San Mar Gale Village proposal. They spent three years putting together the plan before it began grinding through a half-dozen public hearings since last fall without a final decision. Another hearing is set for next week.

 

...

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060215/NEWS01/602150398/1077/rss02

 

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From the 2/24/06 Enquirer:

 

 

San Mar Gale decision postponed

Compromises considered for Warren tract

BY JANICE MORSE | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

 

LEBANON - After nearly five hours of discussion and counter-proposals in a packed hearing room Thursday, Warren County commissioners delayed a vote on a scaled-back version of the long-debated San Mar Gale village, said to be the largest-ever residential development in Southwest Ohio.

 

Commission President Mike Kilburn attempted to postpone a decision for several months, but developers Bill Hines and Dan Griffin proposed a compromise: a limit of 1,650 single-family homes and 500 multifamily homes for a total of 2,150 housing units - 700 fewer than first proposed in September.

 

...

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060224/NEWS01/602240416/1056/rss02

 

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From the 3/1/06 Enquirer:

 

 

San Mar Gale gets go-ahead

5-square-mile village will build 2,150 homes

BY JANICE MORSE | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

 

LEBANON - The massive San Mar Gale proposal is a "go."

 

Warren County commissioners Tuesday approved a zoning change for Southwest Ohio's largest-ever residential development: 1,650 single-family homes, 500 other homes on smaller lots, a retirement center and a 22-acre small-business area.

 

...

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060301/NEWS01/603010388/1056/rss02

 

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If the developers bought the land, they should be able to build on it.  Some people like density, others don't, so why force people to live in a dense environment?  I say if you like the area and can afford the housing, why not live there?  The sprawl issue is stupid, its not killing our country and people need to stop getting all worked up about it.

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If the developers bought the land, they should be able to build on it.

 

Well, there is the issue of zoning....

 

Well yes there is, however I don't see how this development will destroy the area.  It seems well planned and not like the typical developments that rip out everything, pave streets, build the same house 1000 times, then plants trees that they could've left in the first place.  Yes the plans do call for it to be spread out, but what is wrong with that?  I am all for living in an urban environment, but to expect everyone too is stupid.  Sprawl is happening now and will happen as long as there is growth.  I believe in smart growth and mass transit, but I am a big libertarian, so I believe that the suburbs provide good housing at an affordable price.  Just look at Portland, OR, beautiful city, however they placed boundries on where the city ends and everything itside that boundry has gone up in price so fast and so high that low, low middle-class and middle-class residents can't afford it.  The Cincinnati region will sprawl, but it will slow because we're not growing that fast and a rebirth has happened in the city and I believe that rebirth will spread out from the city.

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cincybearcat...perhaps I misunderstood your point.  I took what you said to mean that people should be able to build whatever they want on their land, no matter what.

 

That is why I brought up zoning.  For example, do you want someone to be able to build a steel mill across from an elementary school?

 

Did I misunderstand you?

 

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cincybearcat...perhaps I misunderstood your point.  I took what you said to mean that people should be able to build whatever they want on their land, no matter what.

 

That is why I brought up zoning.  For example, do you want someone to be able to build a steel mill across from an elementary school?

 

Did I misunderstand you?

 

 

grasscat:

 

I should have made my point more clear.  I agree with zoning and it is a good thing.  However, I don't understand what's the big problem with this development.  Some people think its not dense enough, then others think its too dense.  I support this development as it has been planned well and is not the stereotypical suburban development.

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First of all - "San Mar Gale" ???  give me a break. They are just one monorail away from a Simpsons episode. These utopias are developer shim-sham's.  Guess who gets to pay for the inevitable 6 lane redo of I-71 (and other infrastructure) so these Stepford people can still get to The Gap and their offices at Great American or P&G?  Did we think they're going to work at the new "towne" pharmacy and ice cream "shoppe"? how quaint.

 

If you wanna live in the country, THEN LIVE IN THE COUNTRY

 

San Mar Gale is a ruse.  "A 30 year commitment" - ya freakin' kiddin' me?

 

and finally - who they getting to play Andy and Barney up there?  (what's Aunt Bee doing at the fixit shop?)

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If the developers bought the land, they should be able to build on it.  Some people like density, others don't, so why force people to live in a dense environment?  I say if you like the area and can afford the housing, why not live there?  The sprawl issue is stupid, its not killing our country and people need to stop getting all worked up about it.

 

The sprawl issue is "not" stupid.  It is poor planning and should be discussed.  I don't know why I have to keep reminding people that this board is called, "Urban Ohio".  You don't have to agree with the majority of the members on this board but it is not "stupid" to debate sprawl.  This isn't so much about dense development as it is about keeping the land rural.  While most of us on here love dense urban environments, in this case we believe that the land shouldn't be used to create a faux Indian Hill.

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If the developers bought the land, they should be able to build on it.  Some people like density, others don't, so why force people to live in a dense environment?  I say if you like the area and can afford the housing, why not live there?  The sprawl issue is stupid, its not killing our country and people need to stop getting all worked up about it.

 

The sprawl issue is "not" stupid.  It is poor planning and should be discussed.  I don't know why I have to keep reminding people that this board is called, "Urban Ohio".  You don't have to agree with the majority of the members on this board but it is not "stupid" to debate sprawl.  This isn't so much about dense development as it is about keeping the land rural.  While most of us on here love dense urban environments, in this case we believe that the land shouldn't be used to create a faux Indian Hill.

 

I believe I didn't explain myself enough, I didn't want to project that urban sprawl issues are stupid.  What I wanted to say was that urban sprawl will not stop completely.  It will continue, but it can be limited so certain pieces of land are saved.  As with this development, they are saving land by taking a huge piece, and slowly developing it.  It is nice to keep land rural, that is why 95% of our country is undeveloped.

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Sprawl may not be what kills this country, but do not underestimate its attendant harms.  They are not limited to sissy concerns like increased air pollution from more, longer car trips or the loss of wildlife habitat.  Sprawl also degrades the quality of life for both suburbanites and city dwellers.  Suburbanites spend more time commuting and drive everywhere, even to the park or to get a gallon of milk.  As a result they have less free time, get less exercise, and spend more money on gas and car repair.  Sprawl requires more miles of roads and sewers, increasing the infrastructure tax burden per home. 

 

Suburban homes often occupy large lots, and lack front porches and sidewalks.  People drive their cars right into the garage when they get home.  As a result, suburbanites do not regularly interact with their neighbors, and might not even know who lives across the street or next door.  This makes it difficult to foster a sense of community, except in the rare instance where a go-getter neighbor arranges a block party or garage sale.  But these efforts are short-lived, fading away through lack of novelty or the departure of the promoter.

 

City dwellers suffer because suburbanites take their $ with them, forcing the city dwellers to pay to maintain infrastructure built for a larger population.  The suburbanites flee to demographically-homogenous schools and create demographically-homogenous schools behind them when they leave, amplifying misunderstanding and intolerance in new generations.

 

So sure, sprawl might not kill the U.S., but it's not doing it much good either.

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From the 3/18/06 Enquirer:

 

 

San Mar Gale plan hits snag

Turtlecreek residents object to commercial district

BY JANICE MORSE | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

 

TURTLECREEK TWP. - Citizens are launching a petition drive that could change - but not stop - plans for a 3,239-acre village.

 

If the opponents' efforts succeed, it also would mean losing a $6 million impact fee to the Lebanon City Schools, replacing a commercial district and green space with 1,000 more houses, and eliminating conditions that would require the developer to pay for roads and other improvements to serve the proposed San Mar Gale village.

 

...

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060318/NEWS01/603180413/1056/rss02

 

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Opponents register petitions to force vote on San Mar Gale

BY JANICE MORSE | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

 

LEBANON - Opponents of the proposed San Mar Gale village say they have enough signatures on a petition to force a public vote in November on the massive project.

 

Two days before a legal deadline, opponents filed petitions Tuesday claiming to have about 300 signatures from Turtlecreek Township voters calling for a referendum on the project. Now, the process begins to see if at least 253 of those signatures are valid.

 

...

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060329/NEWS01/603290339/1056

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From the 4/28/06 Dayton Daily News:

 

 

Turtlecreek Twp. plan will have 1,303 more homes

By Daniel Wells

Staff Writer

 

San Mar Gale developers Bill Hines and Dan Griffin can submit their plan B for the 3,300-acre development in eastern Turtlecreek Twp., the Warren County Regional Planning Commission executive committee has decided.

 

Hines said the alternative plan, which can be built without a zoning change, will have 3,403 homes — 1,253 more than the plan Hines and Griffin hope to build if their request for a zoning change goes through. Hines said he plans to submit the concept plan no later than Tuesday.

 

...

 

http://www.daytondailynews.com/localnews/content/localnews/daily/0428sanmargaleweb.html

 

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From the 5/4/06 Western Star (Lebanon):

 

 

'Plan B' an option for proposed San Mar Gale

Turtlecreek Twp. voters to decide in November

Thursday, May 04, 2006

By Daniel Wells

Staff Writer

 

Will it be 2,150 homes, or 3,403?

 

That’s the choice San Mar Gale developers Bill Hines and Dan Griffin said Turtlecreek Twp. residents will be making when they cast their ballots on the development’s zoning in November.

 

...

 

http://www.western-star.com/news/content/news/stories/2006/05/04/ws0504sanmargale.html

 

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From the 5/5/06 Western Star (Lebanon):

 

 

San Mar Gale developer challenges signatures on residents’ petition

Friday, May 05, 2006

By Daniel Wells

Staff Writer

 

Lawyers for Hines-Griffin Land Development Co. have requested a protest hearing with the county Board Of Elections in hopes of stopping a referendum on San Mar Gale’s rezoning.

 

Turtlecreek Twp. residents want to challenge the county government’s approval to change zoning for 3,239 acres from single-family residential to a mixed use of residences and businesses.

 

...

 

http://www.western-star.com/news/content/news/stories/2006/05/05/ws0505sanmargaleweb.html

 

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Well, the whole signature thing should prove interesting.  Even though these guys are actually trying to do the right thing, people keep dragging on into something that could come out much, much worse.

 

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