Electric Scooter Sharing

[Guest jmecklenborg]

I have now seen multiple characters riding the Bird scooters while talking on their cell phone.  They have both hands on the bars and the $500~ phone cocked between their shoulder and ear.  It looks absolutely ridiculous.  They're showing all and sundry that they've got urgent business going on, but then they're riding a goddamn scooter. 

 

Also, tonight I saw a guy in a minivan hauling a farm trailer full of bird scooters.  He had at least 30 scooters in a giant pile, heading off to who-knows-where to be charged.  I have previously seen guys with a similar number of scooters in the beds of pickups, but the low trailer makes way more sense.  The scooters are kind of heavy and sooner or later you're going to tweak your back loading or unloading them from a pickup. 

 

 

[jwulsin]

15 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

City streets are already safe to bicycle on if you're not an idiot.  Cars just don't erratically swerve and go crazy, and if they do, it doesn't matter if you're on a bike or walking on the sidewalk.  When I see people on group rides that I've previously seen online complaining about cars, it becomes obvious that they just weren't cut out to ride a bicycle.  They're skittish and just don't have a sense for what is going on out in traffic. 

 

I honestly don’t know what point you’re making. Do you think all of our streets are optimally designed today, so we shouldn’t make any changes to make them safer and more attractive to bikers?

 

I agree with you that being an “idiot” increases your chances of injury in most situations, including biking. But I don’t see what point you’re making.

 

I don’t want idiots to get killed by cars either. I bike lots and have never been in a major crash, but I still hate the design of MANY of Cincinnati’s streets. And when I bike in cities that have better bike infrastructure, it feels so much better. In addition to bike lanes, I wish we would design streets to make cars go slower, which will in turn make them more attractive for bikers (and scooters) as well as pedestrians and  people who live there. Slower streets also have the ancillary benefit of making it a bit more expensive (and less atrractive) to live further away in the suburbs, which is a good thing in my opinion.

[Guest jmecklenborg]

I can think of almost nowhere in Cincinnati that I wouldn't ride a bike.  People just need to get better at riding bikes. 

 

I grew up in an area that was completely hostile to bikes, yet we rode our bikes everywhere.  This is where I used to ride when I was 7-8 years old:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2078122,-84.5835639,3a,75y,341.77h,77.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSTnpPcu-LCNDD-TNGH4Lhw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

Early on we'd take our bikes under that little bridge.  Then we realized it wasn't that tough to wait for a gap in traffic and then cross.  I learned early on that "busy" streets weren't anything to be afraid of.  There were no sidewalks, just a worn dirt path on either side of the street, and we'd ramp every driveway. 

 

You don't learn how to ride a bike in a city by riding on bike paths and bike lanes. 

[jjakucyk]

All that proves is that you're an anomaly.  Otherwise the world would be flooded with cyclists.  

[Cleburger]

On 11/10/2018 at 12:16 AM, GCrites80s said:

Most of today's cars have truly horrible visibility outside of them as compared to cars of 20 years ago. Sedan, SUV, pickup truck, crossover -- it doesn't matter. When I'm in my IROC-Z I can see everything and never even have to think about "blind spots". Today's sky-high vehicles have to have super thick roof pillars, huge butts and tall doors because they are always trying to flip over and have to be able to be smashed into by 6000 pound SUVs. Most drivers aren't able to compensate for this and are more careless and more likely to create accidents that would have never happened in cars from 20 years ago.

 

C'mon--you have an IROC-Z?   And it has better lateral visibility than most modern cars? 

[GCrites]

Oh yes. The cab is almost all window. The peak of visibility for the average car was in the '90s though. Here's a car from the '70s that is tough to beat on the other hand. The BMW 2002  

[GCrites]

22 hours ago, jjakucyk said:

All that proves is that you're an anomaly.  Otherwise the world would be flooded with cyclists.  

 

 

BMX was gigantic in the '80s. Kids loved it since the bikes fit them a lot better than the 10-speeds of the '70s and you could have a lot more fun on them than say a Schwinn Stingray. You saw tons of kids on BMXs all day every day back then. But once they turned 16 most people stopped riding in the '90s. Another thing that happened in '90s Ohio is that the parents started dragging their kids out of the bikeable suburbs and moving them to semi-rural roads that were unbikeable. BMXs are totally useless when everyone lives on 3-5 acres, has a five-digit address and the speed limit is 55mph.

[Guest jmecklenborg]

^Yeah I remember how some kids had hand-me-down banana seat bikes from the 70s.  They were terrible bikes.  Then along came mountain bikes around 1990, and a lot of kids wanted them and rode them like crazy.  They were a great bike to move up to after BMX.  After age 16 nobody would be caught dead on a BMX but a mountain bike was okay. 

 

FFWD to the mid-2000s and somehow the bicycle messenger fad spread from a few pockets of East Coast hipsters to a worldwide phenomenon.  The completely irrational fixie bike trend took off and lasted for a bit until the fad wore off by 2015.  Now Craigslist is loaded with fixie bikes for sale just as cheap as late 90s Murray mountain bikes.   

 

If you grew up in the 80s, you know a fad when you see one.  The circa-2011 fixie bike was no different than the Chia Pet or The Clapper or the Honda Del Sol. 

 

I now think that we're going to see city bike riding by non-"native" bicyclist fade out.  All of these people who barely rode bikes but who got bike tattoos and led bike lane efforts are going to be butted aside by corporate efforts to create scooter lanes, not bike lanes. 

 

 

 

 

[Clefan98]

I can't wait to see the revolutionary electric scooter that Tesla will someday release. 

[thomasbw]

On 11/9/2018 at 1:45 PM, jmecklenborg said:

None of this stuff is going to replace buses or cars or really improve mobility for most people.  It's just going to induce demand for frivolous trips.  Those trips were previously on foot or simply didn't happen. 

 

Like with the impending 18-month L train shutdown in NYC -- the thing induces demand just like how free expressways induce demand and super-cheap jet travel induces demand.  Most of the trips people are taking on it now on that subway line will simply cease to occur when it is shut down.  Some will walk to other subway lines, some will take the bus, but for the most part, people will simply stop traveling to Manhattan and vice-verse. 

 

 

 

Speaking of induced demand, free parking and massive automobile subsidies induce more demand than anything else. 

[Guest jmecklenborg]

^The recent unplanned I-85 "carmageddon" in Atlanta proved more than any recent event (including the planned closures of the 405 in the Supulveda Pass) that traffic simply disappears.  Two years ago a freeway overpass collapsed due to a homeless guy setting some plastic tubes on fire.  Total traffic chaos was anticipated until the bridge could be rebuilt, and urbanists predicted high MARTA ridership.  Neither happened.  Some people shifted their routes, some people shifted the time that they drove, but for the most part they simply did no make the trips. 

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2018 by jmecklenborg

[Robuu]

On 11/9/2018 at 8:20 PM, jmecklenborg said:

It's your job while on a bicycle to anticipate when a car can't see you.  You -- the bicyclist -- need to make eye contact with drivers to make sure that they know you're there before you do anything.  You can't ever assume that they see you.  If you aren't absolutely certain that a driver knows what you are about to do, don't do it.  Just go over to the curb, take your foot off the pedal, and wait for the situation to clear.   You need to anticipate, for example, when a turning car can't see you because the corner pillar is blocking their vision.  

I don't really get your point. You're stating the way things are: bike riders must go well beyond what's legally required of them in the name of self-preservation. But it's hard to see how that makes much sense in terms of what is desirable. It sounds like you're excusing drivers for behaving dangerously and breaking the law.

 

Frankly, it sounds like you get a thrill out of cycling being dangerous and want to use that element of danger as a form of gatekeeping to prevent others from enjoying the benefits of a greener, healthier, cheaper, often more convenient way of getting around. Like it's some kind of threat to your identity for cycling to lose its status as a niche mode of transport.

[jjakucyk]

^ That's "vehicular cycling" in a nutshell. 

[DEPACincy]

37 minutes ago, Robuu said:

I don't really get your point. You're stating the way things are: bike riders must go well beyond what's legally required of them in the name of self-preservation. But it's hard to see how that makes much sense in terms of what is desirable. It sounds like you're excusing drivers for behaving dangerously and breaking the law.

 

Frankly, it sounds like you get a thrill out of cycling being dangerous and want to use that element of danger as a form of gatekeeping to prevent others from enjoying the benefits of a greener, healthier, cheaper, often more convenient way of getting around. Like it's some kind of threat to your identity for cycling to lose its status as a niche mode of transport.

 

Exactly. And I'd add that by Jake's logic any and all safety improvements to any infrastructure are unneeded. You can always say people should just be more careful. We discovered roundabouts and other techniques to eliminate left turns are superior because they are much safer. But I could easily say that people should just be more careful when they make a left turn. But that doesn't solve the problem. 

 

The evidence is there that cities that invest in cycling infrastructure to make it safe and effective see an increase in cycling. It's not rocket science. 

[Cygnus]

Lime pulls scooters off the streets

 

One of Cincinnati’s scooter services could be pulling some of its devices off the streets.

 

Fast-growing electric scooter company Lime has removed some of its models of scooters from every city where it operates due to safety concerns, the Washington Post reports.

 

According to the report, some of Lime’s scooters manufactured by Okai may break while in use.

 

It’s unclear how many Okai scooters were in Lime’s fleet or in each city where it operates. A company spokesperson didn’t immediately return a request for comment about the impact the recall could have on the Cincinnati market.

 

Cont

[Guest jmecklenborg]

57 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

The evidence is there that cities that invest in cycling infrastructure to make it safe and effective see an increase in cycling. It's not rocket science. 

 

 

We're seeing widespread adoption of the scooters in the absence of almost any bicycle lanes.   Far more people are now riding the scooters than ever rode the bike share bikes or their own bicycles.  I don't hear an outcry from "scooter advocates" calling for scooter lanes. 

 

So the thought that bicycle-specific infrastructure was necessary to get people to do "microtransit" or "last-mile" modes has been proven incorrect.  People prefer electric scooters to pedal bicycles.  Electric bike share bikes will probably be more popular than pedal bike share bikes, but as I have already mentioned, they can't really do anything that the electric scooters can't and they cost 7x-10x more. 

 

Bicycling in cities is soon going to fade to pre-2000 levels.  The electric scooter is the better mousetrap.  As I have already speculated, advocacy for scooter lanes is going to come from car/mobility companies, not local finger-wagers.

 

The finger-wagers like being "right" more than riding bikes.  They want to be the person who introduces people to the hobby and they don't like people who just do their own thing. 

 

Edited November 13, 2018 by jmecklenborg

[LtCheese]

On 11/12/2018 at 3:56 AM, jmecklenborg said:

If you grew up in the 80s, you know a fad when you see one.  The circa-2011 fixie bike was no different than the Chia Pet or The Clapper or the Honda Del Sol. 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey don't talk about the Del Sol like that! Those were so cool.

[Robuu]

Bike shares would have had the same trending effect if bicycles were a new invention, but they're over a century old and everyone has experienced riding them. Being that they're over a hundred years old, I don't think they're going anywhere, and bike lanes will continue to be relevant despite John Cranley's insistence otherwise.

 

What would a scooter lane look like which isn't hospitable to bicycles?

[Guest jmecklenborg]

Pedal bicycles and electric scooters have very different acceleration characteristics and different cruising speeds.  It's a big problem. 

 

Bike lanes already feel confining, like riding on a balance beam.  Bicycles passing other bicycles in the bike lane is already a big problem.  Now, the scooters have been added to the mix. 

[Robuu]

I think the more worrisome things would be policy-related. Like laws requiring the use of a bike lane if it's available (regardless of potentially large inconveniences of circumstance), or requirements to carry some kind of beacon to alert CAVs to the presence of people walking, biking, or scooting. I don't see how the geometry or signal phasing for a scooter would be very different than that of a bicycle. Which is a separate issue than issues arising from scooters and bikes merely operating in the same lane --- how would that be affected by auto manufacturers advocating for "scooter lanes" specifically?

 

2 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

advocacy for scooter lanes is going to come from car/mobility companies, not local finger-wagers.

What is the difference between the outcomes from top-down versus grassroots advocacy, in terms of the resulting infrastructure?

[thomasbw]

just call them "mobility lanes" problem solved

[DEPACincy]

I still don't get your point Jake. Companies like Bird are already advocating for bike lanes and even offering to pay for them because they know the proliferation of bike infrastructure also benefits them. The bike advocates don't see the mobility companies as an enemy, but a valuable partner. Scooters and bikes can co-exist and will co-exist. Call it a mobility lane if you want, but the outcome is the same. 

 

And btw, Bird specifically calls them bike lanes, so they obviously don't see their product as adversarial to bikes. 

 

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/08/02/scooter-company-bird-offers-to-pay-cities-to-build-bike-lanes/

[Guest jmecklenborg]

My point is that bikes are basically doomed, so quit thinking about bike lanes or the needs of bikes.  Nobody's going to be riding them in 2-3 years. 

 

I have now met two people who have bought their own electric scooters similar to the Bird and Lime scooters. Nobody bought a bicycle after riding a bike share bike because the bikes themselves were so awkward.   People did buy fixie bikes and antique bikes to decorate their apartments.  They didn't ride them because they're lousy bikes, not because we don't have bike lanes.

 

The scooters are much more one-size-fits-all than are bikeshare bikes.  No saddle soreness issues because they don't have seats.  Small women look hilarious on them since the handlebars are so high and big dudes look hilarious because the handlebars are so low, but it works.  For a fraction of the cost of bicycles. 

 

 

 

 

[jjakucyk]

29 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

My point is that bikes are basically doomed, so quit thinking about bike lanes or the needs of bikes.  Nobody's going to be riding them in 2-3 years. 

 

You've made some absurd statements in the past but that takes the cake.  

[Robuu]

That's kind of like saying transit is doomed because electric cars.

 

My counter-prediction is that scooters will have to become more like bikes if they're going to have staying power. Jake even says no one is using the scooters to actually go places. If that's the case, people are either going to drop them as soon as the novelty wears off or they'll find an actual use for them as a travel mode. Assuming the latter, people will start to realize the benefits of bigger wheels and a seat. Then the cost of construction will approach that of the bicycles.

[JYP]

I think pedestrian annoyance and collision from scooters (and bikes on sidewalks) will encourage more demand for bike lanes. They are so popular and so annoying that eventually, people will demand action beyond "enforcement." 

[DEPACincy]

16 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

My point is that bikes are basically doomed, so quit thinking about bike lanes or the needs of bikes.  Nobody's going to be riding them in 2-3 years. 

 

This is just silly. I can't even argue with that because it's so absurd. Again, go to any city with substantial bike infrastructure and they are more popular than ever. 

 

Quote

Nobody bought a bicycle after riding a bike share bike because the bikes themselves were so awkward. 

 

We've had this discussion before, but I am literally this person. I never rode a bike for transportation before Philly started their bike share program. Riding those bikes made me realize how convenient it is, but also that the bikes themselves were not really good for long trips. So I bought a bike I could use for longer trips and trail rides and I still used the bike share system for short trips. It was great because Philly has great bike infrastructure, and despite being a city with over five times the population of Cincinnati and much more traffic (and crazier drivers) I felt much safer on Philly streets than I do on Cincinnati streets. 

[Guest jmecklenborg]

Idiot runs a red light on his scooter and gets drilled:

 

[ColDayMan]

The Scooter Numbers Are In: Here’s How Many People Have Ridden One So Far

 

Over 100,000 people — and maybe as many as 200,000 — have ridden a rentable electric scooter since they were first deployed in Columbus last summer. While that represents the total number of unique users, many people took more than one ride, and the total number of trips by scooter likely exceeds half a million.

 

The numbers are not exact because of gaps in the data submitted to the City of Columbus by Bird and Lime, the venture capital-backed companies that both started operating in the city in July.

 

More below:

https://www.columbusunderground.com/scooter-numbers-bw1

 

[DarkandStormy]

And now the Birds have migrated for the winter.

[DEPACincy]

47 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

And now the Birds have migrated for the winter.

 

I saw an article saying this was happening but they're still here in Cincinnati and I saw them in Oxford yesterday too. 

[DarkandStormy]

6 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

I saw an article saying this was happening but they're still here in Cincinnati and I saw them in Oxford yesterday too. 

 

I was mostly joking.  In Cbus it's the Limes that are basically non-existent while plenty of Birds are still around.

[thomasbw]

Good deal of both still on the street in the City That Sings

Edited December 21, 2018 by thomasbw
that to That

[taestell]

I tried to get a scooter on New Year's Eve around 8 or 9. I tried to unlock multiple Bird and Lime scooters and none of my attempts were successful. I believe the Bird app told me that they were shut down due to weather (it was lightly raining at the time) but the Lime app did not give a reason, it just told me the scooter was not available. So... I think we have a long way to go on the reliability/dependability front before these things are considered a real transportation solution.

[GCrites]

Or they didn't want people taking them out on New Year's.

[Guest jmecklenborg]

^That's one of the big problems with for-profit scooter share.  It gets to switch on and off in a way that nobody would accept from public transportation but people don't write the whole thing off and call in to talk radio. 

[Guest jmecklenborg]

[X]

What's doing on with these things, now?  The ones in Cleveland are completely gone, and after being in the news seemingly every day in 2018 I don't see any news on them anymore.

[Ram23]

^ I've read that Bird has pulled out for the winter entirely in some colder cities, but to your point I have seen very little about it in the news. There are still quite a few Birds around Cincinnati but I don't see people on them as often. My app shows over 100 available right in downtown and around UC.

[ColDayMan]

Charge scooters for parking? Some cities are trying it

 

 

A pilot program is trying manage the use of electronic scooters.

 

Passport, a mobile-payments firm based in Charlotte, North Carolina, is heading up the micro-mobility pilot with its own platform. Charlotte, Detroit and Omaha, Nebraska, are participating in the six-month pilot.

 

Using Passport's platform, city officials can see and control scooter use as well as manage curb use with payment options.

Lime is the only participating scooter company.

 

Passport plans to geomap areas of Charlotte to monitor scooter usage in real time. Vendors will then receive an invoice for how much they owe the city for parking, Wagoner explains. Those vendors can decide if they pass on any cost to the consumer.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2019/03/21/charge-scooters-for-parking-some-cities-are-trying.html

[ColDayMan]

How many are riding e-scooters in Cincinnati and what’s next for them?

 

With interim operating agreements with e-scooter companies set to expire this month, the city of Cincinnati administration released statistics earlier this week on how many people are riding Bird and Lime.

 

The scooters have been in operation since August, and in that time 69,000 people have taken 305,000 rides for a total of 260,000 miles in the six Cincinnati neighborhoods where the scooters operate.

 

The companies are allowed to place them in downtown, Over-the-Rhine, Clifton Heights-University Heights-Fairview, Clifton, Corryville and private streets on Xavier University’s campus in Evanston.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/03/22/how-many-are-riding-e-scooters-in-cincinnati-and.html

 

[Guest jmecklenborg]

Lime reports that electric scooters are rented 14x more often than traditional bicycles:

https://www.masslive.com/boston/2019/04/lime-to-replace-rentable-bikes-in-greater-boston-with-electric-powered-models.html

[DarkandStormy]

BREAKING - people like to have a motor transport them instead of putting in manual work.

[GCrites]

Most people also grew up riding 25 pound bikes rather than ones weighing 65 like the bike share bikes do. "This is a lot more work than I expected"

[Guest jmecklenborg]

1 hour ago, GCrites80s said:

Most people also grew up riding 25 pound bikes rather than ones weighing 65 like the bike share bikes do. "This is a lot more work than I expected"

 

It's also the geometry of the bikes.  The absurdly upright position makes your pedaling less efficient. 

 

[GCrites]

Do they have stubby cranks, like 170mm or less?

[Guest jmecklenborg]

43 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

Do they have stubby cranks, like 170mm or less?

 

I'm not sure what the exact measurement is. 

 

I'm still baffled by the top tube issue.  If someone can't swing their leg over a top tube, they shouldn't be riding a bike.  What riders are they gaining by forcing the whole thing to be 10+ (20?!!!) lbs higher in order to avoid a top tube?  

 

 

 

 

 

[jwulsin]

17 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

I'm not sure what the exact measurement is. 

 

I'm still baffled by the top tube issue.  If someone can't swing their leg over a top tube, they shouldn't be riding a bike.  What riders are they gaining by forcing the whole thing to be 10+ (20?!!!) lbs higher in order to avoid a top tube?  

 

The step-through frames have two majors advantages: ease of use for casual riders AND flexibility for riders of a wide range of sizes. The step-through design allows the same frames to work for riders of all (most) sizes of riders, since even short people can stand over the frames. If you went with a traditional high-step frame, you'd end up with frames that are either ridiculously small for a 6' rider or impossibly big for a 5' rider. 

 

When you buy your own personal bike, you can pick the frame size and shape. I'm not at all "baffled" that a fleet would make different decisions than one person would make for a personal (private) bike. If you look at the most successful bikeshare fleets, they all use step-through frames. If you'd like to offer your feedback to the bikeshare providers on what type of bikes they should use, go for it!

 

Red Bikes are heavy for sure, but that weight gain is not primarily due to the step-through frame. The low-step frame probably adds at most 1-2 lbs of weight. If you compare weights of bikes that come in both low-step and hi-step models, the weight difference is often negligible.

 

The extra weight comes from their components being heavier and more durable than "consumer grade" components, since they need to withstand outdoor elements and the abuse of the general public. I agree that the heavy weight, upright geometry, and limited gearing makes it difficult to ride the Red Bikes up steep hills... and that is why they're looking at ebikes. I haven't heard of any successful bikeshare programs that use lightweight bikes, 

[ColDayMan]

New scooter vendor rolling into Columbus

 

 

A new scooter vendor is rolling into Columbus soon.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2019/04/26/new-scooter-vendor-rolling-into-columbus.html

[ColDayMan]

New Scooter Companies, Local E-Bike Startup Set to Enter Columbus Market

 

Three new “micro-mobility” companies have received approval from the City of Columbus to enter the market and are planning summer launches.

 

Jump, which was acquired by Uber last April for $200 million, will deploy both its rentable e-bikes and scooters, while Spin, which was acquired by Ford Motor Company in November, will soon be rolling out its bright orange scooters.

 

Roam Bikes, a startup founded by local entrepreneur Kelly James, plans to deploy 200 e-bikes on the streets of Columbus this June, with a total fleet of about 500 in place by the fall.

 

The three newcomers enter a market that already has Bird and Lime — which both launched here last summer — and CoGo, the docked bike share system that was established in 2013 (and that was acquired by Lyft last fall).

 

More below:

https://www.columbusunderground.com/new-scooter-companies-local-e-bike-startup-set-to-enter-columbus-market-bw1