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Is it just me or is the timing of this "caravan" a little too convenient coming right in the run up to elections?  Not that there's anyone out their in the international scene who is using refugee movements to destabilize and divide western democracies, or anything *cough* Putin *cough*.

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I so hate this pathetic excuse of a president....

 

And

It's contagious...

And

AND

 

It's not illegal to seek amnesty, especially from our own misdeeds: The Violence Central American Migrants Are Fleeing Was Stoked by the US We're still dealing with the aftermath of atrocities committed by US allies in Central America during the Cold War.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qvnyzq/central-america-atrocities-caused-immigration-crisis?fbclid=IwAR1Np8hLVbz42WICEYRUh2pZudaX-XNuaxWMev8mB1uzoZQohqPg9u5lWEA

Edited by KJP

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If the Democrats take the house, it's time to call Trump's bluff and once again offer a comprehensive immigration reform bill that simplifies the visa systems for migrant workers and other immigrants needed in jobs here. 

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Just now, Cleburger said:

If the Democrats take the house, it's time to call Trump's bluff and once again offer a comprehensive immigration reform bill that simplifies the visa systems for migrant workers and other immigrants needed in jobs here. 

 

He'll just switch parties and then complain that the GOP is obstructing. 

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Just now, gottaplan said:

so the woman who's lived here for 24 years and is now a bank VP never thought to apply for US citizenship?  

 

Who cares? I have a friend who has lived in the USA for 29 years and never applied for citizenship. She doesn't like America and would love to return home if not for her husband being an American and having a good job here.

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Just now, gottaplan said:

so the woman who's lived here for 24 years and is now a bank VP never thought to apply for US citizenship?  

Try watching the story and learning. TPS is for people who are in some way not eligible for asylum or refugee status, which means they do not have a path to citizenship. JFC.

"If I am granted TPS, am I then eligible to apply for a green card at a later date?

No. TPS is a temporary immigration status for people temporarily in the U.S., to protect them from having to return to an actively dangerous situation in their home country. Even if you were to live and work legally in the United States as a TPS beneficiary for many years, there is no route to permanent residence (i.e., a green card) that will follow simply from a grant of TPS."

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^ Temporary (key word) Protection Status was never meant to be permanent. Providing a permanent route to citizenship defeats the purpose of the status.

 

Also, the list of countries whose citizens can seek out such protections is ever-changing. There are 10 countries on that list now. 12 countries have been added and since removed over the years. Eventually, the 10 countries on the list now will be removed and new countries will be added if/when needed. This is how the program works. Everyone who is granted TPS should assume they'll eventually return home. That's the whole point.

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Unless the situation in the country of origin doesn't improve, which it may not over one person's lifetime. Even if not, the law is faulty. There is no path to permanent residency in the USA. Why the hell not??

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The point is, nearly 350,000 people whose countries are still dangerous and awful to live in have come here, had families, made friends and gotten jobs and created a home here where they are contributing and happy members of the American society and it is STUPID AND CRUEL to kick them out. That's the point.

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Just now, KJP said:

 

Who cares? I have a friend who has lived in the USA for 29 years and never applied for citizenship. She doesn't like America and would love to return home if not for her husband being an American and having a good job here.

 

Lol this argument really swayed me to the left @KJP

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Just now, KJP said:

Unless the situation in the country of origin doesn't improve, which it may not over one person's lifetime. Even if not, the law is faulty. There is no path to permanent residency in the USA. Why the hell not??

 

I agree with showing these people compassion @KJP, and I believe we have a moral obligation as the "shining city on a hill" to do what we can...  but there has to be some checks on this. Allow me to extrapolate on my point... 

 

9,112,867 people live in Honduras.

6,344,722 people live in El Salvador.

6,167,237 people live in Nicaragua. 

 

Now, let's say the situation in Central America continues to worsen, and from the 28% living in direct fear for their life, we boost that number to 40%. So, that means approximately 8,650,000 people will be living in fear for their lives at home in these countries. Does that mean that if those 40% flee Northward for the United States, we're obligated to take them all in and grant them TPS? 

 

My point is, there has to be some sort of cooperation agreement with Mexico and maybe even Canada to take in these displaced people. Without that, we could really get overwhelmed. 

 

I'd like to find some middle path between Trump's "KEEP EM THE HELL OUT" and the extreme Left's "Let them be citizens ASAP." Because neither of those extremes are sustainable nor do they advance American interests. 

 

 

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Just now, YABO713 said:

 

Lol this argument really swayed me to the left @KJP

 

Is that a "left" argument? Besides, I wasn't trying to make a partisan argument or sway anyone. My point was to show that there are others who are in this country longer than that bank VP and have no desire to become an American. Perhaps some will realize there are a variety of people in America for reasons that have nothing to do with America itself.

 

Just now, YABO713 said:

 

I agree with showing these people compassion @KJP, and I believe we have a moral obligation as the "shining city on a hill" to do what we can...  but there has to be some checks on this. Allow me to extrapolate on my point... 

 

9,112,867 people live in Honduras.

6,344,722 people live in El Salvador.

6,167,237 people live in Nicaragua. 

 

Now, let's say the situation in Central America continues to worsen, and from the 28% living in direct fear for their life, we boost that number to 40%. So, that means approximately 8,650,000 people will be living in fear for their lives at home in these countries. Does that mean that if those 40% flee Northward for the United States, we're obligated to take them all in and grant them TPS? 

 

My point is, there has to be some sort of cooperation agreement with Mexico and maybe even Canada to take in these displaced people. Without that, we could really get overwhelmed. 

 

I'd like to find some middle path between Trump's "KEEP EM THE HELL OUT" and the extreme Left's "Let them be citizens ASAP." Because neither of those extremes are sustainable nor do they advance American interests. 

 

 

 

OK, I'll play. Yes, 8.65 million is a lot -- to Canada. It's not a lot for the USA to absorb, especially over a number of years.

 

BTW, looking long term, this number of refugees will pale in comparison to "Climate Refugees" which now stands at 65 million+ and, of course, is rising. If 8.65 million scares you now, then fasten your seatbelts, mi compadre. 

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/06/20/621782275/the-refugees-that-the-world-barely-pays-attention-to

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Just now, rockandroller said:

Due respect, as I know you tagged KJP and not me, but we have plenty of room for all of these people, and then some.

https://slate.com/business/2013/01/what-would-happen-if-we-let-all-the-immigrants-in.html

 

I understand that and appreciate your point. 

 

I just don't think a border that would become, in practice, almost completely porous is the best route for this country.

 

I am completely fine with increasing the number of people we take in and providing an incentivized path to citizenship. My ancestors came here as pariah from Ireland some 130 years ago and I wouldn't be standing here without their fortitude and America's willingness to accept them.

 

And, to be blunt, I think the "let them in because we need the cheap labor" is a bit of a slap in the face to these people - not saying you were suggesting that, just a point as a whole

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Just now, YABO713 said:

 

 

I'd like to find some middle path between Trump's "KEEP EM THE HELL OUT" and the extreme Left's "Let them be citizens ASAP." Because neither of those extremes are sustainable nor do they advance American interests. 

 

 

 

 

I feel like your characterization of the left's immigration plan is a strawman or merely represents a way outside of mainstream view.  While Trump's view is the mainstream GOP view.  The middle path actually exists within the Democratic party.

 

This type of both side-ism is disingenuous. 

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ABSOLUTE FACT and excellent point @KJP re: Climate refugees. The first time a Hurricane Michael type storm hits Central America head on, there will be trouble. 

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Just now, YABO713 said:

 

And, to be blunt, I think the "let them in because we need the cheap labor" is a bit of a slap in the face to these people - not saying you were suggesting that, just a point as a whole

 

I didn't say "cheap." We DO need the labor.

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Just now, freefourur said:

 

 

I feel like your characterization of the left's immigration plan is a strawman or merely represents a way outside of mainstream view.  While Trump's view is the mainstream GOP view.  The middle path actually exists within the Democratic party.

 

This type of both side-ism is disingenuous. 

 

Hence my use of the word extreme. 

 

I think the Left has plenty of politicians with common sense proposals - more than the right. 

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Just now, freefourur said:

I know you used the word extreme but you compared the extreme view on the left with the mainstream view on the right.  

 

It may be a mainstream view of the Trump cult, which to be fair to your point - is the mainstream GOP today, but its not the mainstream view of the people on the right who would actually craft this policy. Most GOP Senators favor immigration reform that would lead to an incentivized path to citizenship. It might not be what you'd consider to be fair, but I think it's a moderate starting point. 

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@YABO713 I think "almost porous" is an exaggeration, but appreciate your civility.

 

We have the capacity and the need for more people. People who actively want to come here and who want a better life and move mountains to get it. I would be proud to be made up of a country of people and surrounded by neighbors who have this attitude about the country I just happened to born in. It was easy for me. It's not for them. How is having more citizens who love America somehow a bad thing? More small business owners, more jobs, more culture, more people contributing to a great country, I just don't see how this is a bad way and "kick everyone out because they don't speak English" is good.

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Just now, YABO713 said:

ABSOLUTE FACT and excellent point @KJP re: Climate refugees. The first time a Hurricane Michael type storm hits Central America head on, there will be trouble. 

 

Or the swamping of coastal lowlands in Bangladesh and Brazil, or the military conflicts over increasingly scarce food/water supplies among African and Asian nations, or worsening brush/forest fires worldwide, or worsening diseases from the dislocation of pests worldwide... It's not just Central America we have to worry about.

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Just now, YABO713 said:

 

It may be a mainstream view of the Trump cult, which to be fair to your point - is the mainstream GOP today, but its not the mainstream view of the people on the right who would actually craft this policy. Most GOP Senators favor immigration reform that would lead to an incentivized path to citizenship. It might not be what you'd consider to be fair, but I think it's a moderate starting point. 

I keep hearing that there are moderate conservative views in congress but I don't actually see any action.  They acquiesce to the crazies, which is why we are here. 

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35 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

Idk what to do about this caravan of migrants. This is somewhat unprecedented. 

 

This happens literally every year.  Many will peel off in Mexico (or some place before the U.S. border).

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On 10/11/2018 at 6:43 AM, rockandroller said:

Regarding the landscapers, I get the challenge, but the article comparing them to seasonal workers like crab fishermen is exactly the problem. Guys (and yes, it's all guys) travel from all over the country for those seasonal jobs and it's because the pay is enormous even considering the extremely harsh and dangerous working conditions. . . . . They have been existing as a company by severely underpaying people what these jobs are worth, and now that those workers are no longer available, they are having trouble staying in business. . . .


I get that this isn't always possible and that our country currently is run by millions of immigrants working for low wages. Restaurants, landscaping, agriculture, child care, there are tons of industries not paying workers enough who have been relying super heavily on paying immigrants pennies, and everyone is going to have to start paying more now if they want the work done and it's a huge, huge shift.

1

 

I was a little confused here, but I think I agree with your point.  The first paragraph talks about landscapers and crab fishermen and then talks about "the pay is enormous" and then transitioning to talking about "severely underpaying people" without specifying for which job -- I'm assuming it's crab fishermen that are receiving the enormous pay and the landscapers who are severely underpaid.   And I agree -- I think we need to figure out how to pay all workers at least a wage where rent/groceries/transportation to work doesn't exceed what the worker makes in 40 hours, and should be much less (75%?  50%? -- that's another discussion) -- the so-called Living Wage.  It has to be adjustable for local conditions, so a national Living Wage may be difficult to legislate.  Better at a state or regions-within-a-state level.

 

At the same time, how do we encourage businesses to provide opportunities for 16-18 year-olds to have part-time jobs where they can learn about working? 

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Just now, YABO713 said:

My point is, there has to be some sort of cooperation agreement with Mexico and maybe even Canada to take in these displaced people. Without that, we could really get overwhelmed. 

 

Who is "we?"  The U.S.?  Or Texas?  This is ~7,000 people, not all of whom will even finish the journey to the border.  The amount of "freak out" happening over what's likely to be less than 7,000 people is...well, it's something.

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Just now, DarkandStormy said:

 

This happens literally every year.  Many will peel off in Mexico (or some place before the U.S. border).

  This is a story being pushed heavily by Fox News and Trump to try to scare people into voting  They don't have accomplishments to run on so they run on fear. 

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Just now, rockandroller said:

@YABO713 I think "almost porous" is an exaggeration, but appreciate your civility.

 

We have the capacity and the need for more people. People who actively want to come here and who want a better life and move mountains to get it. I would be proud to be made up of a country of people and surrounded by neighbors who have this attitude about the country I just happened to born in. It was easy for me. It's not for them. How is having more citizens who love America somehow a bad thing? More small business owners, more jobs, more culture, more people contributing to a great country, I just don't see how this is a bad way and "kick everyone out because they don't speak English" is good.

 

I hear ya, and bottom line... people who will bring their children on foot over 1,000 miles are clearly desperate for a better life. 

 

Having said that, my almost porous comment doesn't refer to lack of security, etc. Rather, it just refers to the causal effects of allowing everyone in who wants to claim TPS. 

 

I don't want to give this talking point the light of day, but it is worth noting how dangerous places like Honduras have become. Presumably, not every single person in this caravan is fleeing because they were in danger, and that's a problem for me. It's absolutely gut wrenching to think about a 4 y/o girl getting denied entry because of that, but I think it needs to be a consideration in how we reform ourselves in the future when it comes to situations like this 

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Just now, Foraker said:

 

I was a little confused here, but I think I agree with your point.  The first paragraph talks about landscapers and crab fishermen and then talks about "the pay is enormous" and then transitioning to talking about "severely underpaying people" without specifying for which job -- I'm assuming it's crab fishermen that are receiving the enormous pay and the landscapers who are severely underpaid.   And I agree -- I think we need to figure out how to pay all workers at least a wage where rent/groceries/transportation to work doesn't exceed what the worker makes in 40 hours, and should be much less (75%?  50%? -- that's another discussion) -- the so-called Living Wage.  It has to be adjustable for local conditions, so a national Living Wage may be difficult to legislate.  Better at a state or regions-within-a-state level.

 

At the same time, how do we encourage businesses to provide opportunities for 16-18 year-olds to have part-time jobs where they can learn about working? 

 

I know I rambled but yes, your understanding is correct. I was angry that the article compared landscapers to crab fishermen as the latter are paid so well they go out for the season and literally won't have to get another job the whole rest of the year if they don't want to - they earn a very good wage for their seasonal work, enough for a decent annual salary. So comparing them is dumb.

I think extremely tough manual labor jobs are not a very good way to introduce teenagers to the working world unless the goal is to teach them that work f*king sucks and you can die before you're 40 if you keep working at that pace. Landscaping is not only very physically demanding, it is extremely dangerous due to all the chemicals you are exposed to and I for one wouldn't want my not yet fully grown child exposed daily to massive doses of those types of chemicals every day.

There are a million ways to learn about the working world. I've worked in offices that have high school interns, they are trained on things like basic office functions, copying, filing, going to meetings, how to mail stuff via fed ex and crap like that. I mentored a HS intern at a very small PR firm, taught her how to write press releases, told her about how to work for different kinds of bosses, taught her about work flow and project management. Metro has a program for high schoolers where they can job shadow and learn all kinds of medical and non-medical jobs. And then there's good old foodservice, which I did. I worked at 2 different fast food restaurants and a small indie lunch counter. I also stuffed envelopes for the local music union and babysat. My sister packaged horse vitamins and sold shoes. There are lots of jobs that don't involve daily exposure to roundup combined with literally backbreaking physical labor. I think the promotion and encouragement of those positions is important, but it's up to individual businesses how and if they want to do that. I mean, some of the HS interns when I was at the law firm were found sleeping at their desks. It may be asking a bit much to expect them to go to school FT and work on top of it. I didn't have a choice, but I wish I could have just gone to school, done my work and socialized in my spare time instead of having to work for money for the light bill or whatever.

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1 hour ago, freefourur said:

 

 

I feel like your characterization of the left's immigration plan is a strawman or merely represents a way outside of mainstream view.  While Trump's view is the mainstream GOP view.  The middle path actually exists within the Democratic party.

 

This type of both side-ism is disingenuous. 

 

I offered several ideas here before on immigration reform.  Not all of them were loved by all, but they were all potential solutions to help tackle the problem.  Republicans could easily do something about it, but part of their current appeal is in manufacturing fear about an out-of-control mob of criminals crossing the border in the dead of night to rape everyone's suburban grandmothers.   

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1 hour ago, YABO713 said:

ABSOLUTE FACT and excellent point @KJP re: Climate refugees. The first time a Hurricane Michael type storm hits Central America head on, there will be trouble. 

This has already happened.  1998s Hurricane Mitch, a Cat 5, killed over 11,000 in Honduras, Nicaragua and other parts of Central America.  Even though it's been 20 years, that storm was disruptive enough alone to displace hundreds of thousands of people, and has likely had direct and indirect effects on immigration to the US from this region ever since.  It's a poor, politically unstable region to begin with, and there were no doubt long-lasting consequences.

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Walking through Guatemala, through Honduras, though El Salvador and Mexico isn’t a crime under US law. Or even a crime under the laws of those nations.

 

US laws do not apply to the leaders (or the citizens) of foreign countries. International laws and agreements likewise don’t apply to this migration, and in fact, in most regards international laws prohibit governments from preventing migration and enjoin nations to provide aid and comfort to those in need.

 

Having defined migrants as criminals and a dire threat to America, Trump then declares his political opponents, Americans, as enemies of the country – because in Trump’s mind he is America and thus any opposition must therefore be treason. Criminal.

 

MORE...

https://www.stonekettle.com/2018/10/the-big-lie.html?spref=tw

 

@DarkandStormy I just discovered that these migrant marches or caravans happen even more often than annually--at least once a year. What's different now? The fear monger in the White House and our elections occuring in two weeks.

 

Everyone... please take notice of when this Snopes piece was written and the reference to prior marches: https://www.snopes.com/news/2018/04/03/caravans-of-immigrants/

Edited by KJP
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this migrant caravan isn't something only reported on fox news, it was the top story last night on NBC and again this morning at 7am.  USA today led with it as well.  Both media outlets are calling it a "showdown"...  seems pretty dramatic for something that happens every year...

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